About Death and Resurrection

[Jürgen Hubert]

By the way the Shadowfell entry in W&M seems to be clear about making adventures to find the lost souls of the dead possible in 4E.

Now that is pretty cool - nice and mythic, and with ample literary precedent.

Of course, I fully expect the typical PC to turn their heads around about 10% into the journey back, and not just when they are within sight of the exit.

 

[Lizard]

Now that is pretty cool - nice and mythic, and with ample literary precedent.

It's how resurrection works in our current D&D game, IAE. You have to go get the soul, and THEN make a huge sacrifice (5000 gp worth) to the gods to placate them for your temerity in violating the natural order.

 

[Reynard]

I can't believe you're trying to debate the interpretation of the RAW, when the RAW haven't even been published yet!

Man, what?

We had no idea what the RULES are governing death. So the supposition that its a resource constraint issue versus a rule prohibition is equally valid.

You are right: we don't have the rules. What we have instead is a pretty direct statement of the consequences of whatever the rules are.

Furthermore, even if it explicitly stated that there was a rule against raising Heroic tier characters, there's absolutely no guarantee that it won't have been changed between the preview books and the actual release.

I fail to see how soimething that may or may not have occurred that is enitrely unkowable has any impact on the discussion, other than the serve as a defense for an otherwise invalid interpretation.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So the fact that the rather direct statement is under a section about how 4E differs from 3E and a sub-heading of how death, specifically, differs from 3E is some sort of red herring?

Looking at the DMG tables for populations (in my head, not in reality), I think it is not unlikely to find a Druid or Cleric capable of raising a character between level 1-10. At level 7+, if you have a Druid or Cleric, the party can do it itself (assuming it wasn't the "raiser" that died...)
You don't need one of the rare metropolises for that.

I take the statement as meaning that heroic characters do simply not have access to spells or rituals capable of raising someone. Also, higher level NPCs are less unlikely to be able to help you because the Paragon levels of raising are not suited for everyone. Maybe it takes a lot of time and money, so even if you find a Paragon level NPC, it's unlikely he has the time or you the resources to get it done. If you are in the paragon tier, you will probably do it yourself.

...

Then, I am also considering that some ressourection magic/rituals are in fact restricted to the level of creatures they can raise. Maybe it's just a lot less likely for such a ressourection to succeed, or it's plain impossible.
Epic level heroes are... well, epic. They might have a god or high level entity that favors them enough to "cheat" a little bit with the soul-wandering to its Afterlife and delays a dead heroes soul long enough for ressourection magic to work easier for them.

 

[The_Pugilist]

Wouldn't work on him, he's not 11th level. Unless it's an "artifact". Which, uh, despite being a thing of much greater power than a normal ring, works on "lesser" beings.

Magic. Sure is wonky, huh?

Still, soooo glad we won't have cheap&easy resurrection in 4e. Maybe in 5e.

"Remember in 4e when you could sometimes DIE? We've fixed that!"

(I always thought it would be cool if raising someone cost OTHER people XP, like, say, 200 XP/level of the dead character, which had to be paid for voluntarily. So the party would need to 'chip in' their XP to raise their buddy...or just let him rot.)

Edit: Misinterpreted your post. Sorry!

Personally, I favor what was mentioned a few posts ago from W&M: going on quests to rescue the soul from the Shadowfell before it passes on, either to the service of a god or to the Great Mystery beyond.

Hell, while I am on the subject, one of the things that REALLY bugged me about Planescape was petitioners. Ok, so no more mystery of what happens to dead folks, move along, nothing to see here!

 

[tresson]

Wouldn't work on him, he's not 11th level. Unless it's an "artifact". Which, uh, despite being a thing of much greater power than a normal ring, works on "lesser" beings.

Magic. Sure is wonky, huh?

Still, soooo glad we won't have cheap&easy resurrection in 4e. Maybe in 5e.

"Remember in 4e when you could sometimes DIE? We've fixed that!"

(I always thought it would be cool if raising someone cost OTHER people XP, like, say, 200 XP/level of the dead character, which had to be paid for voluntarily. So the party would need to 'chip in' their XP to raise their buddy...or just let him rot.)

Or you know that play test session was done before the level limit on rings was added?

 

[Wolfwood2]

One of the biggest things I'd hoped for in 4e is that they would make it harder to die, but much harder to come back (if at all). I think they hit just the right note on the heroic and paragon tiers, but anytime I hear that death is treated as a "speed bump", at any level, I start to wince.

Death should not be a speed bump, it takes away something from the game if you're effectively immortal and can just hit the restart button and carry on. I hope there are effective (and not too esoteric) ways to keep people dead - PCs and NPCs alike.

At Epic levels, I expect many PCs will be on their way to being actually immortal. If you're in taste range of actual immortality, being "effectively immortal" doesn't seem such a leap.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

I fail to see how soimething that may or may not have occurred that is enitrely unkowable has any impact on the discussion, other than the serve as a defense for an otherwise invalid interpretation.

Show me the relevant text that says "we have rules prohibiting heroic tier characters from returning to life."

or even one that says. . .

"Heroic tier characters are incapable of being returned to life."

All we have is a statement that when a heroic tier character dies, the owner rolls a new character. . . there is absolutely no information provided concerning WHY the owner rolls a new character.

Could be resources, could be rules, could be characters get smacked with severe consequences for dying that at heroic tier are severe enough that the "logical" decision is simply to roll a new character, but nothing prevents somebody from being attached enough to a character to continue playing it.

Making statements at this point concerning what those rules are and declaring other people's interpretations invalid is simply a ridiculous assertion that it unsupported by the information provided.

 

[Lizard]

Making statements at this point concerning what those rules are and declaring other people's interpretations invalid is simply a ridiculous assertion that it unsupported by the information provided.

I'm sorry, I thought this was the Internet.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

I'm sorry, I thought this was the Internet.

Yes, but the other half of the internet culture of people making ridiculous statements using dubious logic with a questionable factual basis. . . is for other people to call them out on it!