advancing creatures CR

[trentonjoe]

I took a regular dire bear and added 5 hit dice and made it huge.
I also added a new feat which allows it to throw grappled creatures. It started out as a CR 7 what should the new CR be?

Dire Bear
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 17d8+102 (189 hp)
Initiative: +0 (Dex)
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 18 (-2 size, +0 Dex, +10 natural)
Attacks: 2 claws +23 melee, bite +18 melee
Damage: Claw 2d6+14, bite 2d8+7
Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 20 ft./10ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swat
Special Qualities: Scent
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +10
Abilities: Str 39, Dex 11, Con 23
Int 2, Wis 12, Chr 10
Skills: Listen +10, Spot +9, Swim +13 Hide -4*, Jump +11, Listen +3,
Climate/Terrain: Any forest, hill, mountains,
plains, and underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 10?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 13-16 HD (Large);
17-32 HD (Huge);

Dire Bear
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the dire bear must hit with a claw attack.

Grapple check 33
Using just one arm 13

Swat (Ex): The bear can throw a grappled creature 1d6 + str modifier feat away. The thrown creature takes 1d6 oints of damage for each 10 feet thrown and must make a fortitude check versus the amount of feet thrown. Failure indicates the thrown creature is stunned for one round. Either way the thrown creature is prone.


Any suggestions?

(edit fixed hit points and AC)

 

[CRGreathouse]

By the rules, CR increases by +1 for every +50% HD, so CR 8.

Most people see these rules and just ignore them, usually laughing about 66-HD solars.

 

[graydoom]

According to the MM (page 14), you do not increase the CR when advancing a creature by size.
According to common sense, that's BS. I'd put this creature at CR 11-13. But my CR estimate have never been good, and there aren't any real guidelines either .

Edit: DMG -> MM, added page number

 

[Ace32]

I've always handled 'advanced' creatures as 'new' creatures in terms of CR, and recalculated the CR based on the CR guesstimator from that one dragon article, and then adjusted it if I thought it was a little out of wack.

 

[Valorian]

CRs in 3e

I realize that 3e is really 1e of pretty much a new game; therefore I expect some problems. One of those at least in my opinion is CR.

I personally think the CR on a Dire Bear is too low. Compare a Dire Bear to a Hill Giant (both CR 7). Hit points are identical, Bear gets two attack at +18 and 1 at +13, Hill Giant gets +16/+11. AC and Damage, the Hill Giant has a slight advantage, but the Dire Bear has significantly better saving throws. Hill Giants have (fairly weak) ranged attack and feats, but the Dire Bear has Improved Grab and Scent...I think the base Dire Bear should be CR 8.

I'd say your bear should be about CR 11....your bear is better than a Fire Giant (CR 10), and about comparable to a Cloud Giant (CR 11).

One other thing, has anyone (DM) had a problem w/ monster summoning 6... it seems to me that the only really good critter to get from MS6 is the celestial dire bear (only CR 9, according to Monster Manual). Take a dire bear and add acid/cold/electricity resistance 20, damage reduction 10/+3 (this can be a serious problem for the opposition), and SR 24! (a serious problem for even an 11th level spell caster).

Compare that to other things you can get w/ MS6, Elemental Large (only a 8 hd creature), chaos best (8 hd), Kyton (+9 attacks, SR 17, 44 hp), Barbazu (SR 23, 10/+1 DR, 33 hp, etc...although it does get rage).

The CR on the Barbazu is CR 7, same as the base Dire Bear (which I think is low) without the celestial add (which I think whould be at least +3 for a 12 hd creature... just adding SR24 and +3 damage reduction is a big deal. And to top it off, the CR of the Barbazu is inflated due to its summoning ability, which it cannot utilize since it itself is a summoned creature.

Do you folks really think, the moster summoning rules were playtested enough?

One other thing (yes again), since we are talking about CRs, what do you folks think the real CR should be for a Huge Earth Elemental...the Monster Manual says CR 7, but I think that seems way too low.
152 hp, attacks of +19/+14/+9 (if your on the ground its +20/+15/+10), with damage of 2d10 +13 (+14 if on the ground...pretty likely), damage reduction 10/+2, 15ft reach, the ability to walk through stone and immunity from criticals, poison, sleep and paralysis, and its got power attack, cleave and great cleave. Its only real disadvantage is its slow.

Looking at the numbers it compares similarily to a Fire Giant (CR 10), I'd say its at least a CR 9, and probably a 10. What's your opinion?

 

[trentonjoe]

Wow, you totally hijacked my thread!! (I heard someone else say that and have wanted to say it myself since!)

Seriously, though you points are very insightful. I imagine this has been said before but the summon monster spells make little or no sense. I agree with you one hundred percent.

The elder elemental seems to be wrong as well but give the CR system some credit. For the most part I find them alright. Try to remember that all CR 7's are not created equal; they're are supposed to be close to equal though.

Thanks for your imput on the bear; I'll run a mock combat or two with it between a Fire Giant and a Cloud Giant it see where it plays out.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

I would put it in the low 10s. Either 11 or 12.

I usually try to find something that is about as powerful and use that for a guidline for setting the CR.

--Dire Spikey

 

[Grazzt]

According to the MM (page 14), you do not increase the CR when advancing a creature by size.

Though the official MM errata isnt out yet, WotC has said that this is a mistake.

As was mentioned above, for every 50% increase add +1 to the CR.

P.S. A 66 HD Solar should be about CR 35 or so.

 

[MythandLore]

By the rules, CR increases by +1 for every +50% HD, so CR 8.

Most people see these rules and just ignore them, usually laughing about 66-HD solars.

Though the official MM errata isnt out yet, WotC has said that this is a mistake.

As was mentioned above, for every 50% increase add +1 to the CR.

P.S. A 66 HD Solar should be about CR 35 or so.

Both of you are on the money.


_______________ADDED_______________
LOL! I just relized the first person I quoted was CRG, the KING of CRs with his Dragon Generator.

 

[MythandLore]

Re: CRs in 3e

One other thing, has anyone (DM) had a problem w/ monster summoning 6... it seems to me that the only really good critter to get from MS6 is the celestial dire bear (only CR 9, according to Monster Manual). Take a dire bear and add acid/cold/electricity resistance 20, damage reduction 10/+3 (this can be a serious problem for the opposition), and SR 24! (a serious problem for even an 11th level spell caster).

Compare that to other things you can get w/ MS6, Elemental Large (only a 8 hd creature), chaos best (8 hd), Kyton (+9 attacks, SR 17, 44 hp), Barbazu (SR 23, 10/+1 DR, 33 hp, etc...although it does get rage).

The CR on the Barbazu is CR 7, same as the base Dire Bear (which I think is low) without the celestial add (which I think whould be at least +3 for a 12 hd creature... just adding SR24 and +3 damage reduction is a big deal. And to top it off, the CR of the Barbazu is inflated due to its summoning ability, which it cannot utilize since it itself is a summoned creature.

Do you folks really think, the moster summoning rules were playtested enough?

Nice job on hijacking the thread BTW.

Dire was a missprint
Replace the word: Dire
With the word: Polar
I.E
SM5 - Celestial Bear, Brown (6HD)
SM6 - Celestial Bear, POLAR (8HD)
SM7 - Celestial Elephant (11HD)

BTW For anyone that was wondering.
You, don't count the CR of a summoned monster.
When your fighting someone who summons a monster, you get no exp for killing it.
Called monsters you can, called monsters really die too when you kill them.
Summoned monsters are considered part of your opponent's overall CR regardless of if it's from a spell or a monster's power.
So when you fight like a balor and he summons another tuff demon to help him and you kill them both, you only get the exp for the balor.