Advice for Caves of Chaos/B2

Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
Justin Alexander (thealexandrian.net) makes a really good point about the Caves of Chaos with respect to new players: When you enter the valley with the caves, you're effectively presented with 12 choices (assuming you see all of the cave entrances). There are few adventures where you're so clearly presented with so many choices right at the very beginning and that's one of the reasons I continue salvaging it and using it in play.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
Justin Alexander (thealexandrian.net) makes a really good point about the Caves of Chaos with respect to new players: When you enter the valley with the caves, you're effectively presented with 12 choices (assuming you see all of the cave entrances). There are few adventures where you're so clearly presented with so many choices right at the very beginning and that's one of the reasons I continue salvaging it and using it in play.

I would argue that the majority of those are false choices. At least 3 of those choices - temple, bugbears, minotaur - lead to TPKs if the party is just 1st level with starting equipment, since they are basically designed with 2nd to 3rd level characters in mind. Even the hobgoblins and orcs are likely to to send starting characters tumbling back in confusion with high loses, and the gnolls certainly will. And one of those choices isn't actually apparent, because it isn't actually a visible entrance.

But more to the point, none of them are real choices because the party has no way of having information on what cave that they want to enter. If the choices is not at all informed, then it's not a choice. I could number the entrances from 1 to 12 and randomly assign a lair to the entrance the party used, and it would be no less a choice than what is presented - that is to say zero choice is not less than zero choice. Giving players the illusion of choice is not the same as giving them multiple paths through the challenge. The difference is that when players have the illusion of choice, they still aren't actually crafting their own narrative.

'Go left' or 'Go right' isn't a real choice. There has to be some quality to the choice that makes choosing that choice mean something. "Assault the front gate" versus "Sneak in the back" is a choice and which is correct might depend on the capabilities of the characters, which means that the players might have some reason to believe they are or aren't making the right choice.

Finally, at least in my small sample set, Gygax correctly assumes that player psychology will lead them away from seeking out the more distant and inaccessible entrances - that also have the most difficult foes. The two groups I played with looked at it, and both said, "What is the closet entrance?" and more or less coin flipped 'left' versus 'right' with one choosing the goblins and the other the kobolds - both of which are clearly intended as the targets of the players initial assaults and are the only lairs you can likely assault without platemail and 2nd level fighters.

By contrast with random meaningless 'left versus right' choices, my own campaigns first adventure began with a natural disaster - a tidal wave inundating a city. To prepare to run this I had to imagine all the possible things that a player might do to respond to this information, beginning with the obvious 'run away', but including things like 'climb atop a building', 'find a sturdy building to shelter in', 'get in a one of the large vessels in the harbor and ride it out', 'get in a small boat and ride it out', and 'do nothing'. Those are actual choices being made based on information that lead to different sorts of outcomes, and then those outcomes in turn lead to different situations - split parties, moral choices (engage in looting versus try to rescue people), and so forth.

Real choices in terms of the situation provided by 'Caves of Chaos' aren't 'What's behind door #3?'. They are things like, rouse the keep's army to attack the caves, side with the cultists in the caves versus the keep, deprive the inhabitants of the lair of provisions, negotiate a peace treaty, assassinate the leaders by stealth, and so on and so forth. But neither the players nor the DM are provided the tools (or reasons) to actually have choice in the scenario. As presented it's a clear kick the doors down, kill the things, and take their stuff scenario. The complexity or subtlety encouraged (or erroneously assumed) with respect to the dungeon by modules like U2 or U3 are not found in the text.
 
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Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
I would argue that the majority of those are false choices. At least 3 of those choices - temple, bugbears, minotaur - lead to TPKs if the party is just 1st level with starting equipment, since they are basically designed with 2nd to 3rd level characters in mind. Even the hobgoblins and orcs are likely to to send starting characters tumbling back in confusion with high loses, and the gnolls certainly will. And one of those choices isn't actually apparent, because it isn't actually a visible entrance. (snip)

In other words, they're the sort of choices you want beginning characters to make because they see the consequences of those choices and that, in D&D, one of those consequences can be a TPK.

Remember, my comment was in the context of new players learning the game.

(snip) But more to the point, none of them are real choices because the party has no way of having information on what cave that they want to enter. If the choices is not at all informed, then it's not a choice. I could number the entrances from 1 to 12 and randomly assign a lair to the entrance the party used, and it would be no less a choice than what is presented - that is to say zero choice is not less than zero choice. Giving players the illusion of choice is not the same as giving them multiple paths through the challenge. The difference is that when players have the illusion of choice, they still aren't actually crafting their own narrative. (snip)

Yes, prima facie, they have no way of having information. But they can gather that information. They can analyse tracks. They can hide and ambush a hunting party. Etc.... Of course, Gygax doesn't provide meaningful descriptions but, if you're running a Gygax adventure, by definition you're running an adventure that isn't complete (because it was slapped together at the last minute) and needs lots of work to bring it up to snuff.

(snip) Real choices in terms of the situation provided by 'Caves of Chaos' aren't 'What's behind door #3?'. They are things like, rouse the keep's army to attack the caves, side with the cultists in the caves versus the keep, deprive the inhabitants of the lair of provisions, negotiate a peace treaty, assassinate the leaders by stealth, and so on and so forth. But neither the players nor the DM are provided the tools (or reasons) to actually have choice in the scenario. As presented it's a clear kick the doors down, kill the things, and take their stuff scenario. The complexity or subtlety encouraged (or erroneously assumed) with respect to the dungeon by modules like U2 or U3 are not found in the text.

Again, it's Gygax. The adventure is incomplete. I'm not defending the Caves of Chaos as a published product; I am, however, saying that it's an interesting framework on which to hang a larger adventure but you have to do the work yourself. You know, much as you have to do with anything else Gygax slapped together at the last minute.... ;)
 

ccs

41st lv DM
Sure, but there is a big problem with that line of reasoning. If that is what makes B2 a great module, then surely B1: In Search of Adventure is even better, as certainly it does even more to encourage the fledgling DM to stretch their wings and make up their own unique world. Page 2 does not address the fundamental problem that a novice DM has at this point in his career. That problem is that he does not yet know how to make stuff up. Encountering an exhortation to make stuff up is therefore useless, as the novice DM must immediately ask, "How?", and the text does not give a good answer. The only actual tutorial the DM has on what to make up at this point is the text of the module itself, which suggests, "Make up more stuff like this." Therefore, it is very much in the interest of the game and the budding DM's education, that the module present something that is actually really well done, so as to provide a template for all that future imagination. But B2 doesn't do that. It instead presents something fairly unimaginative, incoherent, repetitive, and one dimensional.

Thank God that you weren't around to point this out to my 11 year old self (or my brother, cousin, & our 1 friend we roped into playing) all those years ago.

We had ZERO experience playing D&D. Didn't know any one else who played. And other than me? The others hadn't even heard of the game until I ripped the wrapping paper off it (the Basic set) on Christmas morning 1980.

But somehow, having only the Basic rule book of the time (wich is awesomely scant on the subject of HOW to design encounters/stories/etc btw - if you don't believe me, go read it.) & good old B2 to serve as our initial foundation/examples we managed to make up plenty of stuff....
How is that? What's the secret?
Is it that making up answers & responses to normal questions (like "What's off the west edge of the map?" or "Are there any tracks going in/out of the caves?") isn't really that hard? Even for an 11 year old?
The Basic book DOES tell the DM to be flexible & expect questions/actions they hadn't thought of. So is there any difference between me vs Gygax not having thought of wether you can spot Kobold tracks or whatever?
Or
Were the 4 of us just plain smarter than most people then & since? (This is of course the true answer in my not-at-all-humble opinion)
 

Celebrim

Legend
In other words, they're the sort of choices you want beginning characters to make because they see the consequences of those choices and that, in D&D, one of those consequences can be a TPK.

No, absolutely not. The point is that they aren't choices at all. Two identical doors in a room one of which leads to certain death, when the party has no resources to know which door is right is not a choice. And you don't get to see "the consequences of your action" in that case even if you somehow live because there is no lesson to be learned here. A completely random choice leading to completely arbitrary death is not offering player's meaningful choices.

By contrast, Gygax's infamous Green Devil face is a choice. That door is gives you reason to have pause and consider your actions closely before attempting them. And it offers the prospect of scouting, such as using a 10' pole to try to observe the behavior that can inform your choice. It punishes you for going forward blindly, but it gives you the possibility of doing something else.

In the Caves of Chaos, every door is a blind choice and new players have no way of knowing which is the right choice (for their character level) until they stumble into them. Gygax isn't actually even offering them a choice. He's counting on them making the obvious choice at first and then once they've leveled up they might get more freedom, and he's counting on the DM to steer them into the 'correct' choice if early on they are making the 'wrong' one. For example, regardless of how you get to the Caves and from what direction you first approach them, the intro text pushes the DM to read the passage as if the PC's arrived at the mouth of the canyon on the east side and are facing west. But at that point they have no basis for making a choice at all, and if they TPK what are they supposed to learn: that they are to read the DM's mind?

Yes, prima facie, they have no way of having information. But they can gather that information. They can analyse tracks. They can hide and ambush a hunting party. Etc.... Of course, Gygax doesn't provide meaningful descriptions but, if you're running a Gygax adventure, by definition you're running an adventure that isn't complete (because it was slapped together at the last minute) and needs lots of work to bring it up to snuff.

No tracks are provided in the text, and there are no characters (like Rangers) called out with the ability to track. Nor are their any hunting parties. None of the text calls out the canyon as being alive in any fashion. There is one random encounter with goblins that happens one time IIRC, and that's the extent of it. The encounters are written statically, with ever present guards ready to set up ambushes and summon the 12-20 minions that live continually in each lair. And sure, an experienced DM might imagine all the things that you mention, but this is supposed to be an introductory text, and besides which, an experienced DM probably could create better than this. Heck, an experienced DM can make a more interesting dungeon using the random dungeon generator in the appendix of the DMG.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Thank God that you weren't around to point this out to my 11 year old self (or my brother, cousin, & our 1 friend we roped into playing) all those years ago.

Took me till about 1985 or so to figure out that B2 was not the best prototype for play. That required an encounter with an older DM and encounters with different sorts of modules (U1, I6, etc.)

We had ZERO experience playing D&D. Didn't know any one else who played.

Yeah. Me too. I wish I had had better guidance early on.

But somehow, having only the Basic rule book of the time (wich is awesomely scant on the subject of HOW to design encounters/stories/etc btw - if you don't believe me, go read it.)

What is with this assumption that you were the only people who have been playing since the early 1980's, and the only people who cut their teeth on the red box and B2?

Is it that making up answers & responses to normal questions (like "What's off the west edge of the map?" or "Are there any tracks going in/out of the caves?") isn't really that hard? Even for an 11 year old?

The Basic book DOES tell the DM to be flexible & expect questions/actions they hadn't thought of. So is there any difference between me vs Gygax not having thought of wether you can spot Kobold tracks or whatever?

Or

Were the 4 of us just plain smarter than most people then & since? (This is of course the true answer in my not-at-all-humble opinion)

Yes, clearly the answer here is that you are just smarter than everyone else.
 


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