Almost every fantasy show is trying to be D&D or Game of Thrones

[Dausuul]

I feel like there's some post hoc fallacy going on here.

Observation #1: Most major fantasy shows today are trying to make a commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI).
Observation #2: Most major fantasy shows today are kind of crap.
Fallacy: Commitment to DEI causes a show to be crap.

In fact, #2 is much more likely to be Sturgeon's Law in action. Ninety percent of everything is crap. And if a show is generally poorly done, then its attempts to support DEI will be likewise poorly done -- ham-handed, superficial, and preachy. But that isn't the fault of DEI.

Take for example the handling of race between "Rings of Power" and "House of the Dragon." In both cases, the source material featured an overwhelmingly white cast, and the showrunners wanted to fix that. In "Rings of Power," they added a bunch of non-canonical characters and then picked a handful of them to cast nonwhite actors, with no consideration for things like "Does this person look somewhat similar to their blood relatives?" In "House of the Dragon," they picked one of the major, canonically white families--House Velaryon--and made them dark-skinned*.

HotD integrated their DEI push into the fictional world, making changes to canon where necessary. RoP did not. That isn't because one show was more "politically correct" than the other, it's because one show put more thought into it.

*They really should have done the same with House Targaryen, it would make perfect sense for Valyrians to be dark-skinned given Valyria's location, but I guess they felt constrained to match Daenerys and Viserys in "Game of Thrones."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

On the positive side, this thread helped spur me to finally start She Hulk. Watched the first episode last night and quite enjoyed it. Looking forward to the rest.

It's not the strongest Marvel series but it's head and shoulders ahead of most of the Star Wars series. On the whole, definitely worth watching, I think. If nothing else, the rotating cast of guest stars is pretty fun. I never, ever thought I'd see a D-list Spider-Man character like Frog-Man in the MCU.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Criticizing the production of WOT because the clothing isn’t falling apart or because the actors aren’t white seems to me to show a fundamental lack of understanding about the source material.

As someone who never finished the first book, that fundamental lack of understanding on my part, as a viewer, is the responsibility of the showrunners.

I was repeatedly brought out of my suspension of disbelief by the fact that it looked like everyone had popped down to Old Navy before filming began. If there's an in-world explanation for why all these peasants and nomads looked so freshly scrubbed, it should have been included in the actual show.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Take for example the handling of race between "Rings of Power" and "House of the Dragon." In both cases, the source material featured an overwhelmingly white cast, and the showrunners wanted to fix that. In "Rings of Power," they added a bunch of non-canonical characters and then picked a handful of them to cast nonwhite actors, with no consideration for things like "Does this person look somewhat similar to their blood relatives?"

I was 100% with you up to here.

That's not how genetics work in real life. In real life, you can have wildly different appearances within even a single nuclear family.

 

[Dausuul]

I was 100% with you up to here.

That's not how genetics work in real life. In real life, you can have wildly different appearances within even a single nuclear family.

That happens occasionally, sure, but most of the time there is a resemblance. When all the characters of color appear to be instances of this, it stands out. One dark-skinned elf among a bunch of white elves, one dark-skinned dwarf among a bunch of white dwarves, etc. Where are the families of color in Middle-Earth? Where are the societies of color?

I mean, hell, the people of southern Middle-Earth are canonically dark-skinned and most of them are white in the show. Now, Tolkien made those cultures into The Bad Guys and that obviously would not and should not fly today; but "Rings of Power" has chosen to portray them sympathetically, so why make them white?

 

[billd91]

I mean, hell, the people of southern Middle-Earth are canonically dark-skinned and most of them are white in the show. Now, Tolkien made those cultures into The Bad Guys and that obviously would not and should not fly today; but "Rings of Power" has chosen to portray them sympathetically, so why make them white?

Sure, but... and there's always a but. Harad is south Mordor, or in this case, the lands that were about to become Mordor. And we don't know anything about any people that may have lived there prior to Sauron's return. Geographic proximity may suggest that a non-white people may have been an appropriate population, but that's about all it is - a suggestion based on geographic proximity.

As far as the southern peoples being the Bad Guys - that's an issue of some nuance. Opponents of Gondor - sure. But then, they had been colonized by the Númenoreans, and increasingly exploited as Númenor grew decadent. The Gondorians may have broken the rule of the Black Númenoreans (black for their disposition, not skin color), but to the Haradrim that may have just been trading one overlord for another. Their participation in the war, even manipulation by Sauron, can reflect a certain amount of anti-colonial grievance motive. I'd even say it could parallel Saruman's manipulation of the Dunlendings against Rohan - inflaming old, even legitimate, enmities for the cynical advancement of the manipulator (Saruman and Sauron).

 

[wicked cool]

I have a question as we clearly have a divide in fandom on what is good and not good

Westworld-sci-fi/fantasy started off great but clearly fell of rails after season 1 and cancelled after season 3

Walking dead-my opinion falls off after season 1/2 and seems to get worse and deviates dramatically away from comic but hold onto a semi strong viewership

Do people think their favorite shows could be cancelled. For me I think house of dragon and mandalorian are more than safe however I’m nervous about andor as most people I talked 2 struggled with first 2 episodes
I think the Witcher is in real danger of eventually being cancelled as Netflix is quick to pull trigger . I think one ring is safe and wot has 3 seasons minimum according to a recent magazine. Not hearing much on some Disney shows such as boba fett

 

[TheSword]

As someone who never finished the first book, that fundamental lack of understanding on my part, as a viewer, is the responsibility of the showrunners.

I was repeatedly brought out of my suspension of disbelief by the fact that it looked like everyone had popped down to Old Navy before filming began. If there's an in-world explanation for why all these peasants and nomads looked so freshly scrubbed, it should have been included in the actual show.

Not if you have brought your own set of preconceptions and expectations to the show. If you come expecting fantasy villagers to be slinging mud about like some Monty-python-esq serfs then you will be disappointed.

There’s nothing in the books or the show to suggest the Emonds Fielders are poor. Or backwards, or unsophisticated. They are quite the opposite. Matt’s parents were successful horse traders, Rands was an ex Captain of the Kings guard, Egwene’s are the local mayor and innkeeper. Nyneave is leader of the womens circle. WOT may not have art to your taste but to say it’s anachronistic is just incorrect, because the show never claimed to represent medieval France.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That happens occasionally, sure, but most of the time there is a resemblance. When all the characters of color appear to be instances of this, it stands out. One dark-skinned elf among a bunch of white elves, one dark-skinned dwarf among a bunch of white dwarves, etc. Where are the families of color in Middle-Earth? Where are the societies of color?

The dark skinned elf was deployed on a military mission. His family is elsewhere.

The dark skinned dwarf married into the family. Her family is elsewhere.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Not if you have brought your own set of preconceptions and expectations to the show. If you come expecting fantasy villagers to be slinging mud about like some Monty-python-esq serfs then you will be disappointed.

That's not what I'm saying.

The people I saw in the show in wagons, making a subsistence living, according to the show itself, had creases in their clothes from ironing. They're not sure if they have enough to eat, but on their travels between Burning Man and Coachella, they found a place to get their clothes ironed. Even if we accept that they have an iron and an ironing board somewhere, why are they doing this when they have both physical and food security that are their stated high priorities?

I'm not asking for a miserablist rendering of the world. As you say, that's not the tone of things, but it's pretty clear that there's a high level of "eh, who really cares?" on the production team.