Arcane Magic, Divine Magic, Nature Magic and Psionics are too much alike.

[Gez]

the Vancian system that D&D uses, while straightforward and elegant in execution, is completely... dull.

People who think the Vancian system is dull have never read Vance. You know what you have to do.

Also, we're lucky we have an excellent story hour in the associated forum, which prove to its readers that magic in D&D isn't dull. Read anything by Sepulchrave II, and hunt for the passage where Mostin discuss with other magicians. Definitely Vancian, and definitely not dull.

 

[Voneth]

People who think the Vancian system is dull have never read Vance. You know what you have to do.

Yes, we have to consider why Mr. Gygax never seemed to translate that flavor to his rules, despite drawing his own writng style from Mr. Vance. If anything, G.G.'s "Vancian" magic has turned me off from wanting to read any Dying Earth book, an affect I am sure he didn't intend.

Quite frankly, I think Mr. Gygax's motivations were two fold, the first is the most obvious - but least important, it was an homage. The second and probably more important, the basic concept was easy to translate into a rules system for supernatural artillery ... after the fact.

I mean, come on, this is the same guy who added different dice beyond 6 siders and d20s to the game because it was too much of a pain to seperate out the d10, d4s and d8s. Practicality is G.G.'s top priority.

He's said time and time again, "it's only a game and its only rules." For his criteria, the rules work first, and if they "sorta, kinda" match something that he enjoyed reading, then it was a bonus, but in no way could he care beyond that. For him, the idea of "recreating" a fantasy world is sort lame, its all about the dungeon crawl, baby, because it's only a funky wargame.

Most games try to give you a feel for the their gameworld magic through their rules. If magic is fast and loose, so are the rules (Mage: the Ascension, Unknown Armies.) If the magic is structured, so is the magic (Ars Magica, Palladium.) Through out DnD's history, the rules have never given me any insight to why Vancian magic would be intriguing and the reason is clear when you look at his design philosophy, which is he could care less.

I am not slaming his style of gaming. But if you think about why he really made the decisions he did, it becomes obvious that adding "flavor" to the magic has never been a real focus in the game.

It is also ironic that the "Dying Earth" rpg is played in a much looser, faster style than DnD. Hmmmm.

 

[Psion]

the Vancian system that D&D uses, while straightforward and elegant in execution, is completely... dull.

I think (all too common) attempts to treat all magic like a battery or a tank of gas more dull, if anything.

 

[netnomad]

One thing that I think that would help is that if each class had its on unique spell list. There should be little or no cross over between classes. That would add a lot to the system. Off the top of my head I can think of the following:

Bards - Sonic and Illusion spells.

Druids - Natural, Air, Earth, Fire and Water spells.

Cleric - Depends on god/domain.

Psions- Astral (such as Teleport) Charm and Mind powers.

Sorcerer- Chaos/Destruction type spells.

Wizards -Lawful/Creation type spells.

NetNomad

 

[Toj]

Here is what we have started

My group doesn't like that all 'magic' works the same, so we set out a way to fix it.

Arcane Magic
First we got rid of the Sorcerer.
Same spells as the PHB, but we converted to a mana system. Spell's level x 2 equal mana.
Wizards gain 12 + Int Mod at first level, then 4 + Int Mod every level thereafter.
They can memorize spells (harder to do) from other spellbooks and scrolls. Any spell they have memorized they can use.
They use a new skill called meditation to gain back mana, either passively or actively.
The main difference from the PHB wizard is that they have more of a selection, but they can't cast as many spells in a row, but they do gain back mana or the ability to cast faster than a traditional PHB wizard.

Divine "Magic"
First we call them miracles and we made it based on Faith. It's still the same basic spells in the PHB, but with some flavor modifications. Clerics get to pick two domains of their deity and get all the miracles that fall under that domain. Each spell in the PHB has a faith DC check. Your faith is simply your level, plus other possible modifers.
Possible modifiers to the roll include a feat, a special holy symbol, a holy weapon or artificact, whether the recipient follows your deity, and if you are in your temple. Some miracles can only be tried once on a person, such as raise dead.
This really, really changes the flavor of the cleric. For one it makes the cleric actually try and cause others to follow his deity. It makes the cleric's temple important. Instead of trying to raise your dead collegue and failing and not being able to do it again, you might consider waiting and going back to the temple for that extra bonus. Differences from the PHB... they can fail their miracles, but they can also do them unlimited amount. There is an exception... if you are using a miracle without really needing to use it (such as creating food and water when you have money and could go buy some) your deity may punish you. Same thing goes with always keeping yourself 'buffed' when you aren't even around danger. The whole mindset is that you are actually calling on the power of your deity, and each time you call for a miracle you are calling your deity, so the flavor really changes.

Psionics
We are still working on how we want to do this, but we believe we are using the same disciplines in the Psionic Handbook. You won't have a skill check or slot but will be able to do your power whenever. The more you gain level, the more powerful your powers become, or the more new powers you can pick. Basically it's like if you had telekinesis and you continued to pump points into it, you would be able to lift more and would gain more 'talents' with telekinesis, such as a TK blast or TK forcefield etc.

 

[WizarDru]

One thing that I think that would help is that if each class had its on unique spell list. There should be little or no cross over between classes. That would add a lot to the system. Off the top of my head I can think of the following:

Which would be great...for an alternate setting, or a specific campaign. I wouldn't mind seeing that as an option, but I wouldn't want to have my options that limited. I see the four primary caster classes and the psions as being focused on different things already, and minor tweaking is all that's needed if you really want to excentuate that flavor.

For example: good clerics don't cast evil spells. Clerics have few direct-damagers, while wizards and sorcerors have few divination spells: cull those from their respective spell-lists, and you automatically have a noticable difference. Simply removing the scry and detection spells from the arcane casters dramatically changes the powers of both arcane and divine casters. Restrict some of the 'nature' spells, and possibly the creatures available through summon lists. Make summoning an evil creature an evil act, which can taint the caster. If only a druid can cast Entangle or Flesh to Stone, for example, it becomes a hallmark spell for them, instead of a 'me, too'.

There are many small things you can do to enhance the feel of a class without cutting it's legs off or making the DM's job a nightmare.

 

[WizarDru]

Re: Here is what we have started

First we got rid of the Sorcerer.

This sounds like a Shakespeare quote.

Same spells as the PHB, but we converted to a mana system. Spell's level x 2 equal mana.
Wizards gain 12 + Int Mod at first level, then 4 + Int Mod every level thereafter.
They can memorize spells (harder to do) from other spellbooks and scrolls. Any spell they have memorized they can use.
They use a new skill called meditation to gain back mana, either passively or actively.
The main difference from the PHB wizard is that they have more of a selection, but they can't cast as many spells in a row, but they do gain back mana or the ability to cast faster than a traditional PHB wizard.

Sounds interesting, but I'm trying to absorb how it works. How do they handle memorization, since it sounds like they still do? Are they able to cast any spell they want, as long as they have the mana for it? That sounds awfully out of whack, unless there's another limiter...at 1st level, he could cast something like Limited Wish (but the xp would be a killer) or Finger of Death.

How does this interact with various magic items, like a Ring of Wizardry (presumably now just a mana source) or Ring of Spell Storing? How are metamagic feats implemented, as an additional cost to the spell?

 

[blackshirt5]

I agree with WizardDru, I'd be interesteed in seeing more of this mana system.

 

[Olive]

Here the slot system is supposed to represent the maniuplation of external energy, yet the magi is closed system. He can't "trade" or "borrow" any energy from another source or from another caster. And with the right supplement, a psion can contribute to another psions efforts in more than one way.

sure, but with relics and rituals you can more or less do the same. at least, there is a flow with casters.

 

[Toj]

For the arcane magic system I discussed earlier and the questions imposed:

How do they handle memorization, since it sounds like they still do?

An arcane caster learns spells through research, spellbooks, and scrolls. In order to memorize a spell an arcane caster must fulfill two qualifications. He must first be experienced enough to memorize the spell and second he must have the appropriate intelligence score.

For the experience part, you simply say that to cast such and such level spell you need to be level X. As for intelligence, you must have an intelligence of 10 + the spell level to memorize it as well.

Are they able to cast any spell they want, as long as they have the mana for it?

Yes, but they must meet the above qualifications for memorizing (level and intelligence). Plus they have to find the spell in a spellbook or scroll and be able to decipher the script. Then they must memorize, which works like this:

The length of time it takes to memorize a spell is 1 hour per spell level. The arcane caster must be in a quiet place free of distraction. Once the length of time has been met the arcane caster makes a Spellcraft DC check. The DC is equal to 10 + the spells level x 2. If the DC check is made the arcane caster has stored the spell into memory and is able to cast the spell. If the DC check is failed the arcane caster may spend the same amount of time studying and make another DC check, but increasing it by 1 point. If the arcane caster continues to fail and cannot make the check after 5 tries, he must wait until he increases a level to try again. A memorized spell may be written into the arcane casters spell book.

How does this interact with various magic items, like a Ring of Wizardry (presumably now just a mana source) or Ring of Spell Storing? How are metamagic feats implemented, as an additional cost to the spell?

Rings of Wizardry are mana sources. Each ring would provide a bonus to mana. The higher the ring the more mana it provides. It's a source of magic energy basically that spellcasters draw upon. It has a standard mana recovery rate.

A ring of spell storing would hold spells like it does now, but the it holds up to a certain amount of mana worth of spells.

Metamagic feats basically work the same. Where a feat that causes a spell to cast 4 levels higher now makes you spend the mana for a 4th level higher spell. You can use them whenever though. This can get very expensive. It's designed so a typical wizard will be able to cast his highest level spell 6 to 8 times, depending on his starting intelligence and if he continues to add points to his intelligence.

So like I said before, this wizard has a greater selection of spells, but has a lot total spells if he is casting his highest level of spells.

For instance, a 16th level wizard might have 136 mana, and can cast 8th level spells.

He could bust out (8), 8th level spells in a row, but that would leave him with 8 mana left... Generally a wizard doesn't sit there and cast his most potent spells, he uses the lower leveled ones.