BADD- evaluate my dragon DM'ing? (KotSQ, Glacier Season module SPOILERS)

[Wee Jas]

I don't want any of my players reading this. Especially Doug. You hear me, you system-exploiting goateed bastard?

You know, if this discussion was about "cheating" and acting on pre-knowledge of the outcome that was to come I might be inclined to agree with you... but it's not. From the first sentence, this thread it has been targeted towards the Players of the KoTSQ campaign not the characters. We have a right to know what is said about us "in real life". I've known our group of players for years... and I know just like they wouldn't use out of game knowledge to throw fire on a troll, they wouldn't use this information to affect thier characters actions on Thursday either. You don't have to belive me and I don't care if you do or not. Too many times events that happen in this campaign have revolved around the readers of the story hour and not the player. This whole incident is a good example of when can go wrong when a great service (I love ENworld!) can be abused. Say what you want about our characters but leave our players out of your rants.

It's time for a change... I'm not looking forward to Thursday at all because of this high school bickering and have no desire to play my character that has been so trashed on your thread.

If your pissed... I don't really care.. This is all a game.. Get over it.


PS. Tom puts a great deal of time into the campaign but so de we. My first "coolified" character sheet took hours!, I painted 2 Vek minis, I wrote up a dungeon adventure for Raf's castle area surrounding my phlactery, A lengthy character history, contacting Monte left and right with questions, Illustrating my character and reading and writing on the story hour. I know how much effort Raf puts into his character each week too, and Jettock! Doc is a great writer but WE make the interesting decisions that he gives to you here. Props to the players!

 

[HeavyG]

This AIN'T worth ruining a campaign over!

Ain't that the truth.

Frankly, I think it is a glaring weakness in the module itself. I read all this text about various "what if's", and not ONE of them mentioned the obvious: what if they decide to Teleport (if they meet mod level guidelines, they can T w/o Error!) in? One little sentence with even a lame explanation of why that wouldn't work (special ice, y'know!) would have sufficed. Perhaps it should be made clear that Scrying is insufficient to establish Teleport coordinates (an iffy thing, but I can see it working). As it is, the module left the DM high and dry.

In fact, the module does talk about blocking scrying and teleport. It's in the 'Scaling the adventure' sidebar. So, the author taught about it, but decided it would only be appropriate for parties above 15th level (which is the suggested level for the adventure).

There's also a part about the PCs scrying on the dragon (or any other NPC in its lair, even) and what it does if scryed upon (i.e. have his pet wizard cast screen on its lair). It's in the 'We're being watched' sidebar.

So, in a word, you're wrong.

 

[Victim]

Wow, some of you people are harsh, especially MoH. I don't agree with you at all about the player's attitude; that it's more important for them to preserve their precious characters and magic items. Perhaps you'd like to look at how characters the person you're talking about has lost?

When a number of personal attacks are being made, I think the players have a right to look at this thread and defend themselves. In any case, if they wanted to cheat and ruin Doc's plans, I'd imagine that buying the DUngeon module would be more effective. If they've looked at any BADD threads at all, which isn't unreasonable especially since at least one also DMs, then they could have gotten much the same information. It's not like dragon information is confidnetial or anything.

Finally, if the dragon had a bit more performance tweaked out of it (I certainly don't know enough to say that Doc wasn't running the beast "even close to it's full potential"), the group could have just run away earlier. Even for a might dragon, it's not easy to kill a buffed up group before they have anytime to evaluate and respond.

Now the players have more information after their failed attack but are likely to do better in the future - if they can evade the counter blow. And now Doc has had more time to prepare and has gotten some feedback from people here, so the dragon will be more effective. Everyone involved has learned something, so the battle should be even more interesting the next time around.

 

[Darkness]

Now... What should the fate of this thread be? It has completely lost its intended path by now and I also think that Doc and his players should work this out without us message board types.

Of course, if Doc wants, you can continue debating whatever on this thread (unless it turns into a flame-fest, of course ) nonetheless. So what's the deal, Doc?

- Darkness

 

[gfunk]

Dr. Midnight,

First off, let me say that I feel your pain. A very similar thing happened in our campaign last week. We PCs decided it was time to assault a Mature Adult Red Dragon in its lair. We felt that a quick surprise attack could take the Wyrm off guard.

Just like you, our DM was unprepared for this tactic. Dragons, as you mentioned, have very powerful and diverse abilities and it is extremely difficult to prepare one for battle in short order. We tried to scry on it to Teleport in, but our DM said that all we saw was darkness. Thus, having no visual on the lair, we found that we couldn't just jump in. We presumed that the dragon cast Deeper Darkness around itself to prevent this sort of thing, but we were not sure.

Anyway, to make a long story short, we used Find the Path to get to the lair, then our PCs buffed ourselves up to the max and charged in.

After an epic battle, our Clr 14 was dead but so was the dragon. In retrospect, it seems that our DM could have played the dragon a lot harder, but, like you, it was late and he didn't really have the time to prep it appropriately. However, I think he put up one hell of a fight nonetheless.

So my point is that I fully understand that you couldn't possibly play the dragon at its best b/c your PCs unorthdox methods.

At this point, I would really focus on having maximum fun for your PCs and yourself. Clearly some type of retribution is required but whole-sale slaughter of your players doesn't seem to be a viable option. Like others have suggested, having the dragon buff up its lair (or perhaps even re-locate) is a good option, as is the dragon ravaging the countryside to force local rulers to apprehend the PCs. This could provide a great role-playing opportunity for your players as well as you.

The bottom line is that it's all about having fun for everybody and I think, based on your posts, that you are an excellent DM. Try to smooth over things with your PCs and balance fun with reality.

Good Luck!

 

[Numion]

When Vek realized he could sack Heal for Harm, Doc made his decision to use the save. End of story.

I'm sorry if this was covered already, but I don't think you could've done that. Only cure and inflict spells can be traded.
So, you can only trade a normal spell for a spell that has the word 'cure' or 'inflict' in it's name, depending on your alignment. Heal and Harm don't have such words, and thus cannot be traded.

 

[Darkness]

I'm sorry if this was covered already, but I don't think you could've done that. Only cure and inflict spells can be traded.
So, you can only trade a normal spell for a spell that has the word 'cure' or 'inflict' in it's name, depending on your alignment. Heal and Harm don't have such words, and thus cannot be traded.

Correct - sadly.

 

[JLXC]

Wow. I sit stunned... Congrats! It takes a lot to stun me.

I am a DM... very rarely a player, because of my friends I apparently can take the most crap and deal with it... much like the DM who started this thread I guess.

I would like to start on topic by saying that the Dragon, using Haste and Power Attack should have mauled the party even worse. The DM did pretty good for the situation, could have been better and worse. Yes, using well thought out tactics the Dragon should have totally destroyed the party to a man, no question. Add in the Wizard in the lair and the other 1/2 dragon and the Ice Golems and on and on... it WAS TPK. So what? Yes the dragon can find and kill all the players. It's a horrible situation for the DM.

I could turn this into a "Harm is Broken" thread quick. I too use the Will save and even a save equals 5d8+level damage. Players tend to try to find rules that are OBVIOUSLY broken then cry when the DM takes them away. "Yeah this spell allows you to insta-kill anything without a SR at 6th level and only requires a touch." This SCREAMS error... I digress.....

The DM is the victim and so is his campaign. His players PROVE they are more worried about their characters than the DM having any FUN or getting any Advice from other DM's. Players? Why do you do this? Why do you HAVE to screw your DM? Hell your DM let you jump into a Freaking Bag of Holding and Teleport away. This is just DUMB. It can't happen. He let you walk... and yet here you are whining that the DM may "GASP" have not appreciated some of the things you "Assumed" and did. OMG! The DM didn't love every single thing you did! What a Jerk! Can't you see this? Talk about the DM not getting any respect?

One of the players is all riled up.... "How dare the DM come here and bitch!" (paraphrased) while THEY freely admit THEY TALK ABOUT THE GAME with eachother! The players can... the DM looks for some advice on HOW to play a Dragon better... and he's a jerk? If you can't see my point then you are really better off playing Diablo or Baldur's Gate. Move away from the Roleplaying table because you're not doing it.

I guess this is my "DM's Unite" post in this thread. The DM is so overworked as is, and when things go wrong it's always the "DM's Fault".

ARGH!

Forget that, I could go on for pages.

DM.... I'd just do the "This never happened" thing if you want your campaign to survive. If they do it again, play the Dragon full force and they will have to live with it. They really do think that they can do anything, even reading a thread marked NO to them, and you can't do crap. You're just the storyteller but THEY are the Heroes and you can't screw them over too much or you'll lose all your work HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! This is the kind of game you want? I ran one... I admit to running one NOW... sigh. It's heartbreak road. It turns into a "Stroke my Ego for several hours pal because the real world sucks and you make me feel all tingly" but then a bad roll or a dumb act and you're Satan. They no longer want to play. You are a jerk. This crap could break up real life friendships. I too need to put the foot down, but at least I see myself not alone. It's all about why you DM? Do you do it so THEY have fun... screw continuity and any semblance of danger? If so then let them just kill the Wyrm and move onto the next Ego trip. If you try to have SOME continutity in your world this dragon is gonna hunt them down and kill them... or at the least Strip them of items... which of course will "KILL" your players in their minds anyways... because we all know Magic Items are so much more important than your life.

Players... You guys? What can I say? Give the guy a break already! He's TRYING to be a good DM. So what if things don't always go your way and so WHAT if he gets frustrated and tries to get some advice. You PROVE the point why DM's cannot talk to their players! You get all pissy and mad instantly and begin threatening. Typical child-like behavior. This is why DM's sometimes come and ask OTHERS for adivce. You have all the other players... the DM don't. So just back off and try to roleplay. That's your only job. You REALLY think a character in a gameworld who knows all kinds of legends about dragons and such would just Dive in on such a Huge dragon? Really? Must be really familiar with ressurection and such? Ahh forget it I just sound patronizing. How about just give the Guy a Break. Why don't YOU DM for a while then? See how crappy it is THEN get back to us?

 

[reapersaurus]

Just want to say, this is fascinating, in a vicarious virtual-trainwreck kind of way...
makes for a fun read, actually.

 

[Wee Jas]

Why don't YOU DM for a while then? See how crappy it is THEN get back to us?

Both of our DMs rotate out this week. I'm taking over Unusual Heroes and Jettock's game will be played in place of Doc's.

Man, you really should keep up on current events!

How would you run Harm? I agree its too powerfull but it should do some damage if you allow a save! I'm going to go with the Will save for Half Damge. Which means you lose half your total HPs on a save.