Baker blog paladin and dragonborn

[Li Shenron]

I did not play 3E/3.5. But what I've seen about those races in different books didn't impress me. [i.e.: Races of Dragon]
Yes, it's all imaginary. That's why I love RPGs.

Ok... so you checked out a few dragon-flavored races designed for 3e, some of which at least do indeed grant a breath weapon, and you were unimpressed. Totally fine.

Now, you hear that 4e has a dragon-flavored race that grants a breath weapon, and you are drooling and wondering why something like that wasn't designed before...

You see my problem?

 

[MaelStorm]

Ok... so you checked out a few dragon-flavored races designed for 3e, some of which at least do indeed grant a breath weapon, and you were unimpressed. Totally fine.

Now, you hear that 4e has a dragon-flavored race that grants a breath weapon, and you are drooling and wondering why something like that wasn't designed before...

You see my problem?

What is your point? I did not play D&D for 17 years, Dragonborn is a new playable race in 4E and I like it that its core. I didn't like the idea 3E/3.5 of many different half-dragon race that didn't get mentioned anywhere else except than in that splatbooks, they did not reach me. I'm not going to buy those books now and play those races. They came up with a decent race that looks great to me and it's core, I like the fluff I read about it, the philosophy of honor and clan, the armor, etc. To each their own.

 

[MaelStorm]

EDIT:I did not say that it was not designed before (breath weapon for a half-dragon race). But the breath weapon ability for the Dragonborn race was kept secret until now and I was agreeably surprised. I don't know why you have a problem with my reaction, you seemed focused on the 3E/3.5 half-dragon race abilities. Some where too powerful and some DMs were inclined to refused players to start a 1st level character with those races. Also they where not core content, so RAW DM didn't allow them. What was so great about those races? I see tons of problems instead with the way the were handled in 3E/3.5.

If you don't like the dragonborn, fine. Adapt the one you like from 3E/3.5 and bingo! Everytime you see a dragonborn in 4E replace it with your favorite race instead. If you don't like 4E or don't want to do the extra work, then you have a problem about it, not me.

 

[Hellcow]

A few things...

First, on the final fight in general, the thing I'll emphasize is how much fun I had with it. We were first level characters. The DM threw a horde of kobolds at us. We ended up dying. But in the process we had all sorts of interesting abilities to use and decisions to make. As I said, I had a chance to use every ability I possessed in that final fight (including two of my skills). I was channeling divinity, breathing lightning, laying on hands, calling on my daily and encounter powers - it FELT like 300, with a mighty struggle against overwhelming forces. Meanwhile the kobolds themselves were using their "shifty" power, which lets them shift as a minor action, so they were swarming around us, striking wiith the flank and then shifting away to let another kobold step in for the flank; when two of us finally managed to get back to back, it was a big deal! Their leader was striking with mighty blows that could hit two of us at a time. Just as we had all of our powers we were calling upon, the bad guys had their own tricks. One of the things I like is that if we'd been fighting hobgoblins, the battle would have been completely different, because that shifty ability is a kobold thing. When you're dealing with kobolds, you need to be ready for that constantly moving force, and for the likelihood of lots of flanking; goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs all have their own racial abilities that will color a battle against them.

Second, on the paladin's mark. It's not my place to reveal rules that haven't been revealed. However, I think that I can say that while the mark has changed, the fundamental concept of it - fight the paladin or take radiant damage - has not. The changes that have been made prevent some of the sillier situations seen before, where the paladin can mark someone and then runs away. Without getting into specifics,, the way I see the power is this. The paladin calls out the creature and says "These people are under my protection, villain. Face me, or feel the warth of the Silver Flame!" If the opponent meets the challenge, that's fine; the paladin is a divine champion, and the powers that he possesses have been granted to him to fight this battle. If the creature scoffs at the paladin and refuses to face him, he is scoffing at the paladin's gods - and then you get that radiant damage. It's not the paladin blasting the creature, it's the force that empowers him; the gods themselves are backing up the paladin's challenge. "Show courage and face our champion - or face our wrath." But the paladin himself has to back up the challenge. If he makes the challenge and then runs away - denying the enemy the CHANCE to fight him - the enemy won't be punished for ignoring him. So in my case, I was never in a position where the marked enemy lacked the ability to fight me. They could have chosen to ignore the mark and taken the damage. But especially as most of them were fairly weak creatures, they generallly chose to answer my challenge.

 

[dm4hire]

Wow and here I was being nice just throwing 4 kobold minions at a time against a character, but I can see how more than that with Shifty can turn into a meat grinder for their target, that effectively shifts the damage they can do way up the scale. That tactic would end up looking sort of like this:

o K o K o
K K K K K
o K P K o
K K K K K
o K o K o

o=open space

Effectively getting at least 16 hits on just one person with just this formation allowing them to shift in and out most likely circling the paladin as they attack. Ouch!! That's pretty vicious.

I was using shift ability to get in and out of range, but this is even more brutal.

 

[Hellcow]

Which is exactly why we pushed our way to the wall and got back-to-back when we realized just how ugly it was. It didn't help that three of the kobolds we were fighting had sneak attack!

 

[Bishmon]

But the breath weapon ability for the Dragonborn race was kept secret until now and I was agreeably surprised.

For what it's worth, they were pretty clear about it in Races & Classes. They also said dragonborn will be able to take a feat eventually that will allow them to have wings.

 

[MaelStorm]

For what it's worth, they were pretty clear about it in Races & Classes. They also said dragonborn will be able to take a feat eventually that will allow them to have wings.

Yes you're right, I should have said meh instead.

 

[MaelStorm]

Thanks for ruining the fun, guys. I will keep my mouth shut in the future.

 

[Reaper Steve]

Second, on the paladin's mark. It's not my place to reveal rules that haven't been revealed. However, I think that I can say that while the mark has changed, the fundamental concept of it - fight the paladin or take radiant damage - has not. The changes that have been made prevent some of the sillier situations seen before, where the paladin can mark someone and then runs away. Without getting into specifics,, the way I see the power is this. The paladin calls out the creature and says "These people are under my protection, villain. Face me, or feel the warth of the Silver Flame!" If the opponent meets the challenge, that's fine; the paladin is a divine champion, and the powers that he possesses have been granted to him to fight this battle. If the creature scoffs at the paladin and refuses to face him, he is scoffing at the paladin's gods - and then you get that radiant damage. It's not the paladin blasting the creature, it's the force that empowers him; the gods themselves are backing up the paladin's challenge. "Show courage and face our champion - or face our wrath." But the paladin himself has to back up the challenge. If he makes the challenge and then runs away - denying the enemy the CHANCE to fight him - the enemy won't be punished for ignoring him. So in my case, I was never in a position where the marked enemy lacked the ability to fight me. They could have chosen to ignore the mark and taken the damage. But especially as most of them were fairly weak creatures, they generallly chose to answer my challenge.

Thanks for that!
A solid rationalization. One that still stretches verisimilitude a little much for my tastes, but as long as they fixed the potential abuse, I can accept it.

Although, I have to wonder how they worded the caveat: 'does not take damage if unable to attack the paladin.' That would be open to abuse on its own and not really solve the problem.