Balance: Gestalt Characters vs. Non-gestalts

[zen_hydra]

I have never actually used the gestalt rules before, but I am interested in using gestalt characters to represent a group of inately more powerful/versitile beings in the campaign I am preparing. So, I am looking for some advice for mixing gestalts with standard characters.

What (if any) official ruling is there on how gestalt characters compare to non-gestalt characters power-wise?

If one were to include both gestalt and non-gestalt characters in the same game what would be the best way to balance them?

What CR adjustment would one give to a gestalt NPC?

 

[brehobit]

I think +2 ECL is the general sense. I might go with +1 at lower levels (1-5?)

Mark

 

[Slaved]

I had a dm who treated it as roughly a +1 (I think that some class combinations had an extreme enough difference in power that he actually used a range judging by the experience that we recieved).

We also had the option of getting 10 (or was it 12?) extra point buy points for our base statistics at first level if we accepted an extra +1 LA.

Having more options is nice, along with nearly everyone having at least medium base attack bonus and d8 for hit dice, but since you still only have so many actions in a given round many of the extras just did not have a chance to come up. The difference between having 15 options and 25 options means that you are more versitile depending on the situation but not necissarily more powerful in any given situation.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I have never actually used the gestalt rules before, but I am interested in using gestalt characters to represent a group of inately more powerful/versitile beings in the campaign I am preparing. So, I am looking for some advice for mixing gestalts with standard characters.

What (if any) official ruling is there on how gestalt characters compare to non-gestalt characters power-wise?

If one were to include both gestalt and non-gestalt characters in the same game what would be the best way to balance them?

What CR adjustment would one give to a gestalt NPC?

1. I would give the non gestalt x points higher in stats, probably 6.
2. Allow them to always be one level higher since the gestalt is more versitle with more skills and abilities.
3. I would give them one free feat in addition and 1 additional skill pt a level as well. This would double if they played Human.
4. Or trade either 2 or 3 for an LA +1 race or both for an LA+2 race.
5. The gestalt is limited to one unique non-core class and one core class.
6. Utilize an unlock system for the gestalt character similar to the RPGA. They receive one unlock per level. This unlock allows a race/class/feat or spell that isn't core. Don't place such limits on the single class character. Review what they have carefully though because some unholy combos are possible.
These are my suggestions.

 

[Pyrex]

Not all gestalts are created equal, and it's not as static as a flat modifier.

The best recommendation I've seen is +1 LA per every 5 levels, round up. (i.e., LA+1 when Level<=5, LA+2 from levels 6->10, etc).

CR works a bit differently though, and I'd just say CR+1 for HD <=5 and CR+2 for HD>5.

Another option you might consider is to fix one side of the gestalt:
i.e., run a 'thieves guild' campaign where one 'side' of the gestalt is always Rogue.

I ran something similar where the party belonged to a large mercenary company and thus one 'side' of their gestalt was always Fighter.

 

[DungeonMaester]

Not all gestalts are created equal, and it's not as static as a flat modifier.

The best recommendation I've seen is +1 LA per every 5 levels, round up. (i.e., LA+1 when Level<=5, LA+2 from levels 6->10, etc).

CR works a bit differently though, and I'd just say CR+1 for HD <=5 and CR+2 for HD>5.

Another option you might consider is to fix one side of the gestalt:
i.e., run a 'thieves guild' campaign where one 'side' of the gestalt is always Rogue.



I ran something similar where the party belonged to a large mercenary company and thus one 'side' of their gestalt was always Fighter.

Not to brag, but I made that suggestion, which went unnoticed (I thought) I have also thought up a more simple version of that as well, which is make them half the level as the party. So:

Normal/Gestalt
2/1
4/2
6/3
8/4

Ect ect...

My reasoning for this is that a Gestalt Sorc3/monk3 is as good as sixth level monk. Tons of cool abilities and top notch saves/Good BAB for half the hit points is equal to full sixth level hp, saves/BAB and just the Monk class abilites.

Just apply Exp modifiers to gestalt and let em go.

---Rusty

 

[Slaved]

My reasoning for this is that a Gestalt Sorc3/monk3 is as good as sixth level monk. Tons of cool abilities and top notch saves/Good BAB for half the hit points is equal to full sixth level hp, saves/BAB and just the Monk class abilites.

A gestalt Sorcerer 3/monk 3 is as good as a monk 6?

Gestalt
Hit dice: 3d8
Base attack: +2
Saves: fortitude +3, reflex +3, will +3
Spells as a sorcerer 3
3rd level monk abilities

versus

Hit dice: 6d8
Base attack bonus: +4
Saves: fortitude +5, reflex +5, will +5
6th level monk abilities

or even
nongestalt sorcerer 3/monk 3
Hit dice: 3d4+3d8
Base attack: +3
Saves: fortitude +4, reflex +4, will +6
spells as sorcerer 3
3rd level monk abilities


I must be misunderstanding because that is no where near equivalent.

 

[DungeonMaester]

A gestalt Sorcerer 3/monk 3 is as good as a monk 6?

Gestalt
Hit dice: 3d8
Base attack: +2
Saves: fortitude +3, reflex +3, will +3
Spells as a sorcerer 3
3rd level monk abilities

versus

Hit dice: 6d8
Base attack bonus: +4
Saves: fortitude +5, reflex +5, will +5
6th level monk abilities

or even
nongestalt sorcerer 3/monk 3
Hit dice: 3d4+3d8
Base attack: +3
Saves: fortitude +4, reflex +4, will +6
spells as sorcerer 3
3rd level monk abilities


I must be misunderstanding because that is no where near equivalent.

You are..Spells per day....


---Rusty

 

[Slaved]

You are..Spells per day....


---Rusty

Spells per day are in the character blocks that I put up. The first and third guy both cast as 3rd level sorcerers which has spells known, spells per day, and everything else spell related in there. Plus a familiar.

I would take guy #3 over guy #1 every single time, he is simply better and he is not gestalt!

 

[Pyrex]

You are..Spells per day....

Please explain. A Gestalt Sor3//Mnk3 is absolutely not as strong as a multi-class Sor3/Mnk3. (this is simple math)

Neither is a Gestalt Sor3//Mnk3 as strong as either a Sor6 or Mnk6. (IMHO)

A 1/2 level penalty severely underbalances Gestalt.