D&D 3E/3.5 Barbarian Rage, or whirling Frenzy 3.5 advice

[spiderfate]

im Currently considering creating a Barbarian character for a 3.5 Patolus Campaign. i envision his eventually prestiging in Occult slayer. this barbarian is based on a celtic highlander who wears little or no armor.

My question is should i use the standard Barbarian rage or the whirling frenzy from the Unearth arcana?

Rage Variant: Whirling Frenzy
A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.

Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways. At 11th level (when a standard barbarian gains greater rage), the Strength bonus increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +3. At 20th level (when a standard barbarian gains mighty rage), the Strength bonus increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +4.

A barbarian using this variant doesn't gain indomitable will at 14th level. Instead, he gains evasion, but only while in a whirling frenzy.

A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).

 

[Dandu]

It is mentioned as a decent ACF in my handbook

 

[Vegepygmy]

My question is should i use the standard Barbarian rage or the whirling frenzy from the Unearth arcana?

IMO, Whirling Frenzy is cheesily overpowered, so you should use the standard rage ability.

 

[Dandu]

There's no accounting for taste.

 

[spiderfate]

alright then

 

[Dandu]

Veganpygmy's odd definition of "cheesily overpowered".

Whirling Frenzy gives you more AC than a normal barbarian and an extra attack with a -2 penalty, but you lose the +2 to will saves, the bonus HP, and it has a shorter duration due to the lack of a Con boost.

 

[spiderfate]

ok cool, basically your tradeing hit points for a +2 to ac and an extra attack.

 

[Dandu]

Not just hit points, if you consult my recently edited post.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Veganpygmy's odd definition of "cheesily overpowered".

Whirling Frenzy gives you more AC than a normal barbarian and an extra attack with a -2 penalty, but you lose the +2 to will saves, the bonus HP, and it has a shorter duration due to the lack of a Con boost.

An extra attack is a big deal for a character whose main ability is "dish out huge amounts of damage." -2 to hit is pretty insignificant for most barbarians. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen anyone even notice a barbarian's +2 to Will saves while raging, much less have it affect anything. The bonus HP are frequently more of a liability than a benefit, since they aren't temporary HP (and therefore the damage still applies after your rage ends, occasionally killing you). And the shorter duration rarely matters, since fights don't usually last that long anyway (and they're even shorter when you're making extra big-damage attacks, even at -2 to hit). And an AC bonus in place of a penalty removes the single largest drawback to raging in the first place. The further bonus to Reflex saves is just gravy.

"Cheesily overpowered" is, of course, a subjective standard, but I've seen both versions in play and I stand by my analysis.

 

[Dandu]

An extra attack is a big deal for a character whose main ability is "dish out huge amounts of damage."

Extra HP is a pretty big deal for a character whose main ability is "take huge amounts of punishment."

-2 to hit is pretty insignificant for most barbarians.

Consider: if you look at feats such as Two Weapon Fighting, Snap Kick, Multiattack, and abilities such as Flurry of Blows, a -2 penalty for an extra attack is the standard exchange. This is not overpowered.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen anyone even notice a barbarian's +2 to Will saves while raging, much less have it affect anything.

Can not the same be said of a small bonus to Reflex saves?

The bonus HP are frequently more of a liability than a benefit, since they aren't temporary HP (and therefore the damage still applies after your rage ends, occasionally killing you).

Whereas, if you took the same amount of damage during a whirling frenzy, you'd be so much better off, because you'd be dead in the middle of a fight instead of after it.

And the shorter duration rarely matters, since fights don't usually last that long anyway (and they're even shorter when you're making extra big-damage attacks, even at -2 to hit).

I like how you gloss over the shortcomings of Whirling Frenzy while exaggerating the shortcomings of the standard rage.

And an AC bonus in place of a penalty removes the single largest drawback to raging in the first place.

Oh yes. A whole +2 to AC. That makes all the difference.

"Cheesily overpowered" is, of course, a subjective standard

One that, in my experience is usually reserved for conversations regarding abilities on the level of the Polymorph spell or higher.

but I've seen both versions in play and I stand by my analysis.

From my friends who have played both comes the verdict that they are either roughly equal or that Whirling Frenzy is slightly more powerful. Not a big enough power gap to warrant the term "cheesily overpowered."