D&D 5E Bard/paladin: take 2 or 3 warlock levels?

[intently]

I'm working on a couple of character concepts for a bard and a paladin, and trying to decide if either should take 0, 2, or 3 warlock levels. I've read the various guides. I guess it mostly comes down to whether or not 2nd level warlock slots and the pact feature are worth the delay of the ASI and extra attack / bard spell levels.

Thoughts or experiences?

 

[ccs]

I guess it mostly comes down to whether or not 2nd level warlock slots and the pact feature are worth the delay of the ASI and extra attack / bard spell levels.

Thoughts or experiences?

My thoughts on the matter are:
Does this multi-classing actually fit the character & game?
Because if the answer is no, especially concerning the character? Then it doesn't matter to me how awesome the mechanical benifits are.
Concerning ASIs - if my only reason is to gain another +1? Then I probably won't choose that.

 

[intently]

My thoughts on the matter are:
Does this multi-classing actually fit the character & game?
Because if the answer is no, especially concerning the character? Then it doesn't matter to me how awesome the mechanical benifits are.
Concerning ASIs - if my only reason is to gain another +1? Then I probably won't choose that.

That's a valid perspective.

For me, the concept/personality of the character can develop from the mechanics I want to try. In this case, I want to try the warlock mechanics mixed with these two CHA classes, and I'm curious about other people's experiences with these mechanics.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

Typically you just want to go 2 levels of Warlock. If you go for 3 then you might as well go for 4 to get the ASI. Whether a Feat or ability bump, +1 is more significant than it looks, especially if you are boosting a stat that you use frequently (such as a casting that that would raise your Spell Hit, Spell Damage, and Saving DC).

 

[intently]

Typically you just want to go 2 levels of Warlock. If you go for 3 then you might as well go for 4 to get the ASI. Whether a Feat or ability bump, +1 is more significant than it looks, especially if you are boosting a stat that you use frequently (such as a casting that that would raise your Spell Hit, Spell Damage, and Saving DC).

Thanks!

I really like how the game is designed... it creates a lot of tough choices.

For the paladin/warlock, I could see how getting the warlock spell slots to level 2 would be really valuable for smites, but at the cost of delaying extra attack?? Maybe do warlock 2, pally 5, then another warlock level if desired.

For the bard/warlock, the warlock slots matter less because the bard class gets slots already from its levels. The pact of the chain would be fun for a familiar, still.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

Thanks!

I really like how the game is designed... it creates a lot of tough choices.

For the paladin/warlock, I could see how getting the warlock spell slots to level 2 would be really valuable for smites, but at the cost of delaying extra attack?? Maybe do warlock 2, pally 5, then another warlock level if desired.

For the bard/warlock, the warlock slots matter less because the bard class gets slots already from its levels. The pact of the chain would be fun for a familiar, still.

One of the weird things about 5th Edition is Cantrips scale with Character Level, but your Martial Attacks do not. So by multi-classing, you're Cantrips are going to be better off.

Consider a Paladin 3/Warlock 2 vs. a Paladin 5. The P/W can use Eldritch Blast and do 2 Rays with each doing 1d10 + Cha, and the pure Paladin can do two attacks with 2d6 + Str (assuming Greatsword). So its pretty comparable. But if the pure Paladin is using a Sword & Shield then its down to x2 1d8 + Str, in which the P/W's Eldritch Blast pulls ahead (and the P/W can still use a Shield).

Honestly, unless you are using a Greatsword and the Great Weapon Mastery Feat, the delay of the 2nd attack isn't that big of a deal. In fact, you can compensate nicely by using Green Flame Blade (which is another Cantrip that scales with Character Level). The only thing you really miss out on is the chance for multiple Smites in a single round.

 

[intently]

One of the weird things about 5th Edition is Cantrips scale with Character Level, but your Martial Attacks do not. So by multi-classing, you're Cantrips are going to be better off.

Consider a Paladin 3/Warlock 2 vs. a Paladin 5. The P/W can use Eldritch Blast and do 2 Rays with each doing 1d10 + Cha, and the pure Paladin can do two attacks with 2d6 + Str (assuming Greatsword). So its pretty comparable. But if the pure Paladin is using a Sword & Shield then its down to x2 1d8 + Str, in which the P/W's Eldritch Blast pulls ahead (and the P/W can still use a Shield).

Honestly, unless you are using a Greatsword and the Great Weapon Mastery Feat, the delay of the 2nd attack isn't that big of a deal. In fact, you can compensate nicely by using Green Flame Blade (which is another Cantrip that scales with Character Level). The only thing you really miss out on is the chance for multiple Smites in a single round.

That would s odd that cantrips scale by character level but weapon attacks don't. Seems like they could have created "caster levels" and "weapon levels" or something to advance attacks and cantrips.

Anyway, for the P/W it seems best to take pally at level 1, yes? What about for the bard/warlock?

 

[Vulf]

Are you optimizing for damage or for group utility?

Because the level 6 Paladin feature and the various bard features like Song of Rest, Cutting Words, Expertise will have a much bigger impact for your group than an extra 4d8 damage per short rest from dumping Warlock slots into smites.

Delaying any of those party saving abilities is not a decision to be made lightly. If your party really needs damage and has support aplenty, it could be good, if your patron doesn't conflict with your Oath.

 

[Yunru]

Warlock levels are very nice... when you've nothing else. If you want to be melee, get your Extra Attack first, and from there you might as well get your Aura. Then if you want to go into Bard, go into Bard. Then when you've reached that Bard feature you really wanted, go into Warlock.

Warlock still isn't bad though, as the short rest slots allow you to spit out even more support spells per day, even if it's just healing before a short rest.

 

[Alatar]

For me, the concept/personality of the character can develop from the mechanics I want to try.

I agree with that. Sometimes the mechanics lead you to an interesting character concept. I have a character lined up for our next campaign that has gone through just such a genesis. I started with "let's do a cleric next -- get that social obligation paid down for a few years." That led to a very gamist approach, "so how can a make a cleric that's fun to play?" What has emerged is what promises to a cool roleplaying opportunity.

I really like how the game is designed... it creates a lot of tough choices.

Yes! I really like that about 5e as well. The build economy is really tight. The sweet agony of the trade-offs is really engaging. It's a good system for someone who enjoys building characters.

You can get where you want to go. The question is, can you manage it in less than 16 levels? I'm coming around to the notion that front loading feats will make for more fun than maxing out your primary ability score as quickly as possible. Mathematically, your attack and damage bonuses are probably the most impactful features, and that argues for sticking to a strict ASI plan, but that's not necessarily where the most fun is to be found.

Also, some feats shine brightest at the lower levels of play. If you are playing a sword & board fighter, you want that Shield Master feat early, not late. Shove does not work against huge creatures.

I'm only just getting started with muticlassing in 5e. I like to go the full 20 with a wizard and then a fighter when I first engage with a new edition, and I'm currently only halfway through the fighter campaign. So I have less of a grasp of the nuances of muticlassing, but I can already see that the trade-offs there are also interesting. I'm working on a Dex based melee cleric and I want three levels of fighter to get to the leader-type battle master maneuvers, but going 4 levels of fighter keeps the feat progression more or less intact. Oh, the trade-offs! I'll hit Wisdom 20 at 12th level rather than 15th, but do I really want to delay spell slot progression yet another level? Kiss mass heal goodbye? Tough choices. Fun character building.