Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Sounds like a cheat sheet of where all these monsters are from would be a worthwhile Web supplement, either officially or created by the fans (and maybe posted to Wikipedia or something, so people could find it).
Barrow of the Forgotten King- NOW WITH PLAYTEST
Dr. Confoundo
First Post
Are there any suggestions on how to fit this module in to Eberron or the Forgotten Realms? A quick paragraph or sidebar with that info is always a plus.
DM_Jeff
Explorer
Whizbang Dustyboots said:
*sigh*
Here you go, highlight text below (possible spoilers for nosey folk):Wolf MM
Worg MM
Zombies MM
Skeletal Archers Original
Clockwork Menders MM4
Wolf Skeletons MM
Ogre Zombie MM
Flotsam Ooze FF
Choker MM
Runehound MM3
Varag Zombie MM4 (templated)
Varag MM4
Water Weird Frostburn
Wererat MM
Hobgoblin MM
Warrior Skeletons Original
Lurking Strangler MM3
Giant Stygian Leeches Stormwrack (templated)
Construct MM
Fossergrim FF
Web Mummy MM4
Tomb Spider MM4
Plague Walker MM4
Huecuva FF
Fortified body Original
Mounted Skeletons Original
Yuan-ti MM
Nagatha MM4
Interestingly, it isn't all that hard. Go to the WotC site and search the monster index for book references.
-DM Jeff
Olaf the Stout
Hero
dcas said:
That's what I thought, a but pricey for what you get.
With the new encounter format, it is basically a 32 page adventure in a 64 page book. The other 32 pages are taken up by the encounter maps. At the same time it does look interesting though.
Olaf the Stout
Wraith Form
Explorer
I really can't argue with that at all. I'd rather WotC release a ho-hum, lackluster adventure than none at all. I was just grumpy.DM_Jeff said:
Oh, wait--I'm always grumpy.
Shroomy
Adventurer
I finished reading the adventure last night and I'm very pleased with it. It is a very, very solid adventure with a lot of encounter variety, role-playing opportunities, and detail. I personally loved the usage of non-core material such as the monsters, magic items, and the final legacy item. I'm particulary in love with *****MINOR SPOILERS***** the varag now. I didn't pay much attention to them when I read through my copy of MMIV, but this adventure made me a believer. They are excellent low-level, goblinoid opponents with their high speed, racial bonus to Move Silently, scent, and two bonus feats (Run and Spring Attack). Very cool.
DM_Jeff
Explorer
Playtest
Barrow of the Forgotten King Playtest with MAJOR spoilers
To find out the ‘truth’ behind my suspicions on this adventure, I set about to playtest it myself. I gathered four of my regular players all of whom have been playing D&D with me since the early 1990’s. They came up with the following:
Del, A N female human ranger (archer path) with a Greatbow from Complete Warrior.
KelDair, CN A male halfling rogue/lurk with a fiendish bloodline (from Unearthed Arcana).
Bren, A CN female halfling female warlock also with a fiendish bloodline (from Unearthed Arcana).
Emmerich, A CG male half-orc paladin of freedom (from Unearthed Arcana).
I set it in Greyhawk so the world would not have much impact on an unbiased playtest.
Preparation: I read the adventure twice. This is standard fare for my preps. I read it once, briefly, reading just the main meat and skimming. The second read is complete, making notes as I went, a week before the playtest. I found the layout very easy to navigate. Each of the encounter areas is described, and when combat begins, they direct you right to the page where all the encounter info is. This “new encounter format” is funny, because for me it’s not new at all. For years part of my prep has been scanning creature stats from books and laying them out in a publisher program along with some spell and magic item notes I need for the encounter to run smooth. This way I don’t go flipping back and forth between monster books and the like. So, flipping to a single two-page spread where the page number is called out for you is not a problem. The module is clear to read. I found a handful of occasional typos that never impacted the adventure (except where a particular monster has “+2” listed for hit points). I also scanned the inside cover color map and enlarged to 1-inch squares (sans room numbers) a little too complex for Dungeon Tiles. The night before the game I gathered up the D&D minis and set them aside in a plastic box to call on them as the game ran. Since it calls for a handful of monsters WotC hasn’t made minis for yet I called upon my wife’s gigantic collection of lead. I sat down with the module at one point and went to WotC’s website and their monster index to find the sourcebooks where all these beasties came from (they have since repaired this oversight in newer releases). I then looked up the critters in their original form. I found quite a few tweaked, updated, and custom-fit for the adventure. That’s always neat. I found everything needed to play the monster right there on the spread, but doing the extra homework will allow me to portray them easier during play.
The Session: My group is abnormal. We play D&D very fast; everyone knows the rules (we play RAW without house rules) and what their characters can do. We finished the entire module in one 10-hour marathon session. (Note to self: 10 hour D&D games were a PIA back when I was 17 and it hasn’t got any easier in the last 23 years – don’t do it ever again). That averages an encounter completed about every 30 minutes.
I ran the adventure almost exactly as written. I did cut out one encounter area, the maze room, which I found to be very stupid. I recall reading Dungeon Magazine’s guidelines which basically say “mazes stink, don’t use them” and this module not only gives you one but then tosses in “creature summoning runes” that throw a barrage of monsters at the party sucking their resources and wasting time with pointless combat. That room and encounter became a short, unadorned corridor during my game.
Their general impression of the adventure was “it’s a fun dungeon crawl”. And they all said they didn’t mean that in a bad way, they were quoting for truth. What was good about it? Well, for one thing the most boring and contrite thing you can do when designing an adventure for very low-level characters is to fill it with kobolds and goblins, and that is so old. And while there were a couple of low-level favorites like zombies, skeletons and hobgoblins, the majority of the monsters were things they’d never encountered before, which kept these old-timers really on their toes and never knowing what was next, so they were properly worried. Lacking a cleric and a true wizard, they had plenty of stumbling blocks they had to get by with force.
The beholder room was an issue. It is initially designed so that “if you don’t have the knock spell, you don’t get through”. So I changed it so we could play D&D and not stand at a door for an hour and waste life. Once they got in, they puzzled around the door clue and the tiles for about, say, 5-10 minutes, figured they were out of order, replaced them and got through with little fanfare.
As for the railroading factor folks have equated to this elsewhere, I’ll approach in several ways. I ran this group of players for years, and between them they have over 50 years experience. They simply choose not to be jaded. “Were we forced to go on the adventure or were we asked and allowed to alter the deal? Were we given no choice where to go or did we have to make decisions?” They didn’t really see it as a railroad, just a little linear. So the dungeon rooms, more often than not, lead from one to the next? Sure, but so what. There were also choices, and lo and behold my group was one that didn’t take them, and missed out on two encounters that way (the tomb with the repair constructs and up the shaft to the king’s statue and the runehound). From a DM’s standpoint (and this is really selfish I admit) it’s a heck of a lot easier to keep placing down tiles and then collecting them and tossing them aside instead of keep on re-creating an area on the table as the PCs wander back and forth between areas of your map. So this actually helped speed play by design.
As for the danger quotient, it was certainly there. The room with the cut bridge and the ooze was particularly difficult (two had the murky-eyed flaw and nearly doubled over with laughter as they thought it wouldn’t come into to play). The hexagonal room with the two camped varags and their zombie didn’t treat the PCs well at all, and nearly resulted in a TPK. There were three PCs in negatives and the ranger lived with only 4 hp when it was done, resulting in a table cheer as the group thought they had failed and pulled victory from the skin of their teeth. The danger also made itself apparent in the variety of creature tactics Mr. Stark stocked in here. The lurk had a stunning strike and the warlock a sickening eldritch blast, but just often enough there were undead, constructs and oozes to keep them honest, but gave them a few live foes to use their skills on.
The room with the cleric and the undead deserves attention. A powerful hobgoblin cleric was set upon just as he was about to raise four human skeletons and a minotaur skeleton. The lurk won initiative and ran across the room, struck true, and with a saving throw of “1” later the cleric was stunned for two rounds! The paladin came in and sundered his holy symbol focus, and the others finished him off without fighting any of the skeletons.
The dungeon provided some very interesting and head-scratching moments as the group realized only the good paladin was able to get past certain parts and see things, and provided some very funny moments when the warlock ‘emulated alignment’ with Use Magic Device and managed to eek out the goodness from some items and clues.
The variety of creatures and the strange-shaped rooms and terrain made the combats exciting and interesting, so while there were many of them they held the interest of the players. They really appreciated the roleplaying moments and managed to take advantage of nearly all of them (the module, when it expects a hint of parlay, provided specific guidelines for using diplomacy and what info they might impart. They missed out on one opportunity when they killed the hobgoblin wererat without talk. They wound up intimidating the choker and letting it escape, liked the water weird and made friends with the fossergrim, and had the female bard left behind by the bad guys follow them along (until she died sadly in the Betrayer room).
As for leveling up, the players were smirking quite a bit. As I said when I first posted my thoughts on this, the module assumes you’ll gain TWO levels over about 20 encounters! Wasn’t 14.5 supposed to be the encounters between level gains, at least? My group is from the old school, and while they agree leveling up in my regular weekly campaign every 4 sessions or so is perfect, twice a night is silly to them. Of course I reminded them (and myself) that we’re old. And for the young folks playing this module today, they probably get a blast out of the leveling and power-ups.
The game’s ending was neat. Through some lucky shots they finished it quickly…the Betrayer room just before gave them a much harder time. Interestingly, the lurk’s stun worked to strange effect again. I said how the BBEG was raising his arm to cast a spell or toss something, and the lurk held his action till just such a motion, so he charged and stunned the fellow! “He drops whatever he’s holding, too!” the player reminded me. “Great!” I said. “He drops the item which smashes on the ground and a horrible snake-like monster appears out of the rubble!” and I placed it on the table to the groan of all.
PLAYER COMMENTS:
Phil, the hafling rogue/lurk:
Were we “railroaded”? Yes...I suppose the room-to-room style.
Is that horrible? Not at all.
Was the time constraint false? Yes.
Would it have been better to put in a few alternate endings? Yes (i.e. the bad guys will find the weapons within 48 hrs... if the PC's don't catch them then potentially they could be a recurring villain or they may need to track them across the hills).
Was the challenge commiserating with the level? Maybe a bit high... Each challenge was taking 50% or more of our resources and we were only replenishing those resources by what we took... While a cleirc would have made things easier a wizard would have greatly slowed the group down (oops I've cast my third magic missile for the day I'm out, guys). Something like a wand of magic missile with 10 charges would have kept the game moving for the wizardly type.
Did I have fun? Of course.
I'd rate it about 6.5 out of 10 a good solid adventure for low level characters (though I'd say probably start at 3rd and end at 5th).
Dawn, the human ranger:
I agree dungeon crawls ARE pretty linear. Let's not even begin to compare the options in a dungeon to the ones in a city, obviously.
I don't think gathering more info in the city was necessary, but it would have added flavor.
I think we were a little a little overmatched by the bad guys. I kinda offset the fact there was no cleric & wizard. Even so, we almost had a TPK TWO times during the dungeon.
I liked the bad guys left us the young girl to delay us. Smart villains with a plan are good.
I liked the Betrayer’s throne room - just neat and deadly.
I liked the traps - new and inventive + Dire Leeches? Great!
Using critters we couldn't recognize was cool too.
Everyone had a chance to shine.
Undead, living foes, traps, riddles, tricky villains, unusual monsters, rewarding the Good PC, challenging, Diplomacy was used as well as fighting skills...
All in all - a good well rounded adventure. 7.5 out of 10.
Cheryl the Halfling warlock:
A module like this is best when you have a session or two to work into it - Getting to know and bond with some of the villagers (and each other) before jumping in cold helps. Getting a chance to hear about what a wonderful family the victims were before they disappeared helped. On a normal night we would have taken our time, done some homework and had a reason to either really hate the villain or really care about the missing people. Working something like this in an already established game would have given it a much different feel. I had a great time though, enjoyed everyone’s characters, enjoyed the difficulty level and am glad we skipped the maze room.
Angelo the Hal-Orc Paladin:
I agree with all the other comments, in particular, while this is fun as stand alone, put into the context of a campaign it would really shine. In addition to the different array of monsters, the terrain features also added nice additions. The ecologies made sense as did the tactics. The treasure variation was cool also. I would think this perhaps a third level module as far as power level goes.
All in all I had a really fun time DMing it as well. And that certainly counts for something.
-DM Jeff
Barrow of the Forgotten King Playtest with MAJOR spoilers
To find out the ‘truth’ behind my suspicions on this adventure, I set about to playtest it myself. I gathered four of my regular players all of whom have been playing D&D with me since the early 1990’s. They came up with the following:
Del, A N female human ranger (archer path) with a Greatbow from Complete Warrior.
KelDair, CN A male halfling rogue/lurk with a fiendish bloodline (from Unearthed Arcana).
Bren, A CN female halfling female warlock also with a fiendish bloodline (from Unearthed Arcana).
Emmerich, A CG male half-orc paladin of freedom (from Unearthed Arcana).
I set it in Greyhawk so the world would not have much impact on an unbiased playtest.
Preparation: I read the adventure twice. This is standard fare for my preps. I read it once, briefly, reading just the main meat and skimming. The second read is complete, making notes as I went, a week before the playtest. I found the layout very easy to navigate. Each of the encounter areas is described, and when combat begins, they direct you right to the page where all the encounter info is. This “new encounter format” is funny, because for me it’s not new at all. For years part of my prep has been scanning creature stats from books and laying them out in a publisher program along with some spell and magic item notes I need for the encounter to run smooth. This way I don’t go flipping back and forth between monster books and the like. So, flipping to a single two-page spread where the page number is called out for you is not a problem. The module is clear to read. I found a handful of occasional typos that never impacted the adventure (except where a particular monster has “+2” listed for hit points). I also scanned the inside cover color map and enlarged to 1-inch squares (sans room numbers) a little too complex for Dungeon Tiles. The night before the game I gathered up the D&D minis and set them aside in a plastic box to call on them as the game ran. Since it calls for a handful of monsters WotC hasn’t made minis for yet I called upon my wife’s gigantic collection of lead. I sat down with the module at one point and went to WotC’s website and their monster index to find the sourcebooks where all these beasties came from (they have since repaired this oversight in newer releases). I then looked up the critters in their original form. I found quite a few tweaked, updated, and custom-fit for the adventure. That’s always neat. I found everything needed to play the monster right there on the spread, but doing the extra homework will allow me to portray them easier during play.
The Session: My group is abnormal. We play D&D very fast; everyone knows the rules (we play RAW without house rules) and what their characters can do. We finished the entire module in one 10-hour marathon session. (Note to self: 10 hour D&D games were a PIA back when I was 17 and it hasn’t got any easier in the last 23 years – don’t do it ever again). That averages an encounter completed about every 30 minutes.
I ran the adventure almost exactly as written. I did cut out one encounter area, the maze room, which I found to be very stupid. I recall reading Dungeon Magazine’s guidelines which basically say “mazes stink, don’t use them” and this module not only gives you one but then tosses in “creature summoning runes” that throw a barrage of monsters at the party sucking their resources and wasting time with pointless combat. That room and encounter became a short, unadorned corridor during my game.
Their general impression of the adventure was “it’s a fun dungeon crawl”. And they all said they didn’t mean that in a bad way, they were quoting for truth. What was good about it? Well, for one thing the most boring and contrite thing you can do when designing an adventure for very low-level characters is to fill it with kobolds and goblins, and that is so old. And while there were a couple of low-level favorites like zombies, skeletons and hobgoblins, the majority of the monsters were things they’d never encountered before, which kept these old-timers really on their toes and never knowing what was next, so they were properly worried. Lacking a cleric and a true wizard, they had plenty of stumbling blocks they had to get by with force.
The beholder room was an issue. It is initially designed so that “if you don’t have the knock spell, you don’t get through”. So I changed it so we could play D&D and not stand at a door for an hour and waste life. Once they got in, they puzzled around the door clue and the tiles for about, say, 5-10 minutes, figured they were out of order, replaced them and got through with little fanfare.
As for the railroading factor folks have equated to this elsewhere, I’ll approach in several ways. I ran this group of players for years, and between them they have over 50 years experience. They simply choose not to be jaded. “Were we forced to go on the adventure or were we asked and allowed to alter the deal? Were we given no choice where to go or did we have to make decisions?” They didn’t really see it as a railroad, just a little linear. So the dungeon rooms, more often than not, lead from one to the next? Sure, but so what. There were also choices, and lo and behold my group was one that didn’t take them, and missed out on two encounters that way (the tomb with the repair constructs and up the shaft to the king’s statue and the runehound). From a DM’s standpoint (and this is really selfish I admit) it’s a heck of a lot easier to keep placing down tiles and then collecting them and tossing them aside instead of keep on re-creating an area on the table as the PCs wander back and forth between areas of your map. So this actually helped speed play by design.
As for the danger quotient, it was certainly there. The room with the cut bridge and the ooze was particularly difficult (two had the murky-eyed flaw and nearly doubled over with laughter as they thought it wouldn’t come into to play). The hexagonal room with the two camped varags and their zombie didn’t treat the PCs well at all, and nearly resulted in a TPK. There were three PCs in negatives and the ranger lived with only 4 hp when it was done, resulting in a table cheer as the group thought they had failed and pulled victory from the skin of their teeth. The danger also made itself apparent in the variety of creature tactics Mr. Stark stocked in here. The lurk had a stunning strike and the warlock a sickening eldritch blast, but just often enough there were undead, constructs and oozes to keep them honest, but gave them a few live foes to use their skills on.
The room with the cleric and the undead deserves attention. A powerful hobgoblin cleric was set upon just as he was about to raise four human skeletons and a minotaur skeleton. The lurk won initiative and ran across the room, struck true, and with a saving throw of “1” later the cleric was stunned for two rounds! The paladin came in and sundered his holy symbol focus, and the others finished him off without fighting any of the skeletons.
The dungeon provided some very interesting and head-scratching moments as the group realized only the good paladin was able to get past certain parts and see things, and provided some very funny moments when the warlock ‘emulated alignment’ with Use Magic Device and managed to eek out the goodness from some items and clues.
The variety of creatures and the strange-shaped rooms and terrain made the combats exciting and interesting, so while there were many of them they held the interest of the players. They really appreciated the roleplaying moments and managed to take advantage of nearly all of them (the module, when it expects a hint of parlay, provided specific guidelines for using diplomacy and what info they might impart. They missed out on one opportunity when they killed the hobgoblin wererat without talk. They wound up intimidating the choker and letting it escape, liked the water weird and made friends with the fossergrim, and had the female bard left behind by the bad guys follow them along (until she died sadly in the Betrayer room).
As for leveling up, the players were smirking quite a bit. As I said when I first posted my thoughts on this, the module assumes you’ll gain TWO levels over about 20 encounters! Wasn’t 14.5 supposed to be the encounters between level gains, at least? My group is from the old school, and while they agree leveling up in my regular weekly campaign every 4 sessions or so is perfect, twice a night is silly to them. Of course I reminded them (and myself) that we’re old. And for the young folks playing this module today, they probably get a blast out of the leveling and power-ups.
The game’s ending was neat. Through some lucky shots they finished it quickly…the Betrayer room just before gave them a much harder time. Interestingly, the lurk’s stun worked to strange effect again. I said how the BBEG was raising his arm to cast a spell or toss something, and the lurk held his action till just such a motion, so he charged and stunned the fellow! “He drops whatever he’s holding, too!” the player reminded me. “Great!” I said. “He drops the item which smashes on the ground and a horrible snake-like monster appears out of the rubble!” and I placed it on the table to the groan of all.
PLAYER COMMENTS:
Phil, the hafling rogue/lurk:
Were we “railroaded”? Yes...I suppose the room-to-room style.
Is that horrible? Not at all.
Was the time constraint false? Yes.
Would it have been better to put in a few alternate endings? Yes (i.e. the bad guys will find the weapons within 48 hrs... if the PC's don't catch them then potentially they could be a recurring villain or they may need to track them across the hills).
Was the challenge commiserating with the level? Maybe a bit high... Each challenge was taking 50% or more of our resources and we were only replenishing those resources by what we took... While a cleirc would have made things easier a wizard would have greatly slowed the group down (oops I've cast my third magic missile for the day I'm out, guys). Something like a wand of magic missile with 10 charges would have kept the game moving for the wizardly type.
Did I have fun? Of course.
I'd rate it about 6.5 out of 10 a good solid adventure for low level characters (though I'd say probably start at 3rd and end at 5th).
Dawn, the human ranger:
I agree dungeon crawls ARE pretty linear. Let's not even begin to compare the options in a dungeon to the ones in a city, obviously.
I don't think gathering more info in the city was necessary, but it would have added flavor.
I think we were a little a little overmatched by the bad guys. I kinda offset the fact there was no cleric & wizard. Even so, we almost had a TPK TWO times during the dungeon.
I liked the bad guys left us the young girl to delay us. Smart villains with a plan are good.
I liked the Betrayer’s throne room - just neat and deadly.
I liked the traps - new and inventive + Dire Leeches? Great!
Using critters we couldn't recognize was cool too.
Everyone had a chance to shine.
Undead, living foes, traps, riddles, tricky villains, unusual monsters, rewarding the Good PC, challenging, Diplomacy was used as well as fighting skills...
All in all - a good well rounded adventure. 7.5 out of 10.
Cheryl the Halfling warlock:
A module like this is best when you have a session or two to work into it - Getting to know and bond with some of the villagers (and each other) before jumping in cold helps. Getting a chance to hear about what a wonderful family the victims were before they disappeared helped. On a normal night we would have taken our time, done some homework and had a reason to either really hate the villain or really care about the missing people. Working something like this in an already established game would have given it a much different feel. I had a great time though, enjoyed everyone’s characters, enjoyed the difficulty level and am glad we skipped the maze room.
Angelo the Hal-Orc Paladin:
I agree with all the other comments, in particular, while this is fun as stand alone, put into the context of a campaign it would really shine. In addition to the different array of monsters, the terrain features also added nice additions. The ecologies made sense as did the tactics. The treasure variation was cool also. I would think this perhaps a third level module as far as power level goes.
All in all I had a really fun time DMing it as well. And that certainly counts for something.
-DM Jeff
