D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?

[ChrisCarlson]

The Berserker problems are instead the huge cost:

You keep using the word "huge". Your opinion is noted and disagreed with by various people. Please quit trying to establish said opinion as fact.

1) you get no totems

Correct. But you get other, equally good things. Just ask the devs. They are the ones who put them together in their packages of features.

2) you cannot fully use feats (like GWM or PM, since your bonus action is already overcrowded)

This broad-brush seems spurious claim at best. There are plenty of feats that can be used equally. Because, again, you keep requiring both build take the same feat. Its artificially restrictive. And intentionally so, IMO. Please stop. Its not helping your argument.

3) you gain frikkin Exhaustion

Oh noes. Whatever will the poor berzerker do with exhaustion? I guess all the berzerkers who have taken on exhaustion levels have failed to succeed in adventuring and died. That sucks.

And please don't start on "but only use Frenzy when you need to".

Now who is making demands of other posters' arguments. Ya know, there's a word for when people do not adhere to the standards they set for others...

But everyone else is choosing Totem barb for a reason.

That's just simply not true. Like at all. Would you care to retract or alter this claim? Or at least, to clarify, your allusion that they are all taking bear at 3rd. So not true. I've seen all three totem choices taken.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

But now you're comparing a Berserker's extra attack with alternatives without that extra attack.

If you run a featless game, fine. Berserkers (and TWF:ers) are strong there.

But in any game with feats, it is unreasonable to expect the Totem barb not to take a feat to gain a use for his bonus action.

Wait, did you just basically argue for allowing the two different subclasses to choose discrete options to favor their own builds? Am I reading this correctly? For, like, the exact same reasons I've been giving you?

It just skews your entire comparison, Dave.

Thank you. I appreciate you seeing the problem with that whole line of reasoning.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

I haven't played or seen a Totem Barbarian in a regular campaign to compare, but I have play tested a heap of them and being feared alone sucks.

We had a set-piece encounter with a red dragon a while back where the half-orc totem barbarian was one of about half of us to fail the initial fear save. But he never succeeded on recovering for the rest of the battle, failing every round to shake it off. And having failed that initial check beyond thrown weapon range, and that being all he had, he basically sat out the fight in the back of the cavern. Sucked to be him.

True story.

 

[RulesJD]

We had a set-piece encounter with a red dragon a while back where the half-orc totem barbarian was one of about half of us to fail the initial fear save. But he never succeeded on recovering for the rest of the battle, failing every round to shake it off. And having failed that initial check beyond thrown weapon range, and that being all he had, he basically sat out the fight in the back of the cavern. Sucked to be him.

True story.

You haven't posted a Frenzy Barbarian build yet that you claim is equal/better than Bear Totem.

True story.




Also, if you're playing ToD + RoT and not seeing heaps of elemental/poison damage, please tell me who your LA DM is because they are laughably bad. ToD and EE campaigns alone make Bear Barb the by FAR superior choice if only for the ability to care less about Reckless Attack on enemies with Poison/Elemental damage riders. Cultists/Assassins, Dragon Breath weapons, Mage spells, etc.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

You haven't posted a Frenzy Barbarian build yet that you claim is equal/better than Bear Totem.

I'm still waiting for you to define "equal/better", remember?

Truer story.

Also, if you're playing ToD + RoT and not seeing heaps of elemental/poison damage, please tell me who your LA DM is because they are laughably bad.

You've hinted before than you attend Strategicon. Have we met? I feel like your particular flavor of debatery is somewhat familiar to me. PM me your name so I can tell if we've ever met at one of my cons. You know my name, its right there in my handle...

ToD and EE campaigns alone make Bear Barb the by FAR superior choice if only for the ability to care less about Reckless Attack on enemies with Poison/Elemental damage riders. Cultists/Assassins, Dragon Breath weapons, Mage spells, etc.

Are you aware that bear totem's benefits only function while the barbarian is in their rage state? I just want to make sure. It seems like you are giving the impression it's an always-on feature. Or, are you saying that your totem barbarian manages to always have rage going? If so, let me know who your LA DM is because they are laughably bad.

 

[RulesJD]

I'm still waiting for you to define "equal/better", remember?

Truer story.


You've hinted before than you attend Strategicon. Have we met? I feel like your particular flavor of debatery is somewhat familiar to me. PM me your name so I can tell if we've ever met at one of my cons. You know my name, its right there in my handle...


Are you aware that bear totem's benefits only function while the barbarian is in their rage state? I just want to make sure. It seems like you are giving the impression it's an always-on feature. Or, are you saying that your totem barbarian manages to always have rage going? If so, let me know who your LA DM is because they are laughably bad.

1. Does more damage, lasts longer, provides more party utility, literally every category of judging a character's mechanics. This isn't difficult, you're just avoiding the fact that you have zero argument and zero build.

2. We haven't.

3. Nope, it's not always on, but that's a zero-sum argument because if Bear totem barb isn't on, then neither is Frenzy barb's Charm/Frighten resist or regular BPS-reduction. That's why it doesn't matter.

4. I asked first, and you're still just stalling to make up for the fact that you know that you have no build that competes with any of the Totem builds that have been posted. PAM wrecks Frenzy's benefits, even more so when adding in GWM and the fact that a Bear Totem can Reckless Attack more often without the worry of being burned down by AC Attacks with non-BPS riders (aka the enemies I listed above + most everything in the Princes of the Apoc + Out of the Abyss aka Drow Poison weapons).

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[ChrisCarlson]

1. Does more damage, lasts longer, provides more party utility, literally every category of judging a character's mechanics. This isn't difficult, you're just avoiding the fact that you have zero argument and zero build.

I'm wondering how bear totem's resistance equates to doing more damage or helping party utility? As for lasts longer, I've found shortening the length of a fight by hitting harder (and more often) helps alleviate the need to "last longer". After all, dead enemies don't deal any kind of damage in need of resisting. A good offense makes a great defense in 5e, n'est pas.

2. We haven't.

Interesting. Are you sure? You didn't seem to know who I was earlier. So I'm not clear why you sound so certain. Its just that I know an awful lot of the people, in AL and otherwise, attending our cons.

3. Nope, it's not always on, but that's a zero-sum argument because if Bear totem barb isn't on, then neither is Frenzy barb's Charm/Frighten resist or regular BPS-reduction. That's why it doesn't matter.

So we are in agreement that the 3rd-level bear totem feature is not a blanket resistance to all damage (less psychic, of course, even when up). Okay, good. You had me worried for a second there.

4. I asked first, and you're still just stalling to make up for the fact that you know that you have no build that competes with any of the Totem builds that have been posted. PAM wrecks Frenzy's benefits, even more so when adding in GWM and the fact that a Bear Totem can Reckless Attack more often without the worry of being burned down by AC Attacks with non-BPS riders (aka the enemies I listed above + most everything in the Princes of the Apoc + Out of the Abyss aka Drow Poison weapons).

I have no doubt that this proposed totem barbarian, with two top-tier combat feats, "wrecks" a berzerker barbarian using only their 3rd level frenzy feature. You are absolutely correct. Good thing that's a rather silly comparison, devoid of any practical value. What with the known fact that feats are potent and should impact a character's overall usefulness in some manner (combat in the case of the two feats you listed).

BTW, your totem barbarian is also an infinitely better ritual caster than the berzerker. How could I even hope to overcome a harsh truism like "infinitely better"? I guess I shouldn't even try.

 

[Ashrym]

No.

Again you reply by conjuring up ridiculous examples, instead of taking my methodological advice to heart.

You are wasting everybody's time. Good bye.

Your methodology is flawed because it ignores intelligent design. It's uses isolationist design points instead, which fails because how players will leverage synergies in the different groups of options. It's more about combination of abilities than isolated abilities in this design environment.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Your methodology is flawed because it ignores intelligent design. It's uses isolationist design points instead, which fails because how players will leverage synergies in the different groups of options. It's more about combination of abilities than isolated abilities in this design environment.

All of this.

It's like taking the same idea of requiring to compare two halberd-wielding PAM/GWM barbarians, then deciding the "one alteration methodology" is to make one of them dex-based.