D&D 5E Blade Pact Warlocks and Conventional Wisdom

mellored

Legend
The issue with blade-locks is they effectively don't have a feature, and then have to pay invocations to keep on par. All warlocks can take a sword and hit things in melee, via booming blade or green flame blade, and it scales without invocations.

That said, it's 1 feature and 2 invocations. Losing extra cantrips / invisible familiar, and your least favorite invocations won't make you useless.


Also, it's possible to actually get some benefit from it. If you build Str/GWM/Polearm master, and use spells to give you advantage (darkness / foresight), you could put out some barbarian level damage while having ranged options and utility.

Armor still really helps though, for any warlock in melee. (I houserule medium for blade).
 
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Gadget

Adventurer
While I think it is true that most builds can be 'viable' in 5e, and one can make a perfectly fine blade'lock depending on play style and other things, there do seem to be a couple of hang ups with the blade'lock design. While many are perfectly happy playing a warlock that does not use or emphasize Eldritch Blast, the fact remains that a pure Bladelock is almost better off in some ways using the uber cantrip with the invocations that enhance it. Having a weapon you can 'summon' that is magical after a certain level is nice and thematic and all, but the lack of armor and shield proficiency really do limit one in the melee department. Having to spend invocations to keep the blade option viable would be Okay if there was a defensive invocation to help. At will Mage Armor does not really cut it, and sort of pushes one towards a Dex build to help in the AC department. It seems they need an Eldritch Blast equivalent cantrip for melee.

That said, some racial features and fiend-pact features do enhance or compliment the blade'lock quite well. And a lot of the invocations and features in the UA Hexblade is a 'take two' for the blade'lock. There is an invocation there for better armor and such.
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
At level 5 we have 3 invocations.

I can take one of them for melee as a bladelock. The others are used however.

I have as a variant human, a second feat. However, if I pursue armor upgrades, I also get the equivalent of an ASI with two +1 for say strength.

At the cost of a feat then (since both armor feats give ASI) and one invocation, I can do what a warlock does PLUS hit like a truck in melee.

Do I have action surge? No. Do I have smite? No. But I am fully armored, do good melee damage, cast spells and have special abilities such as Misty Visions (underrated) and perhaps Devil's sight.

So while many combinations can make an uber character, I do not see how this is gimped in survivability, options, flavor.

As a result, unless we are only worried about optimization (which is fine if that is your thing) it is absurd to caution against this subclass unless we are doing the same with anything that does not top out whatever criteria is of interest. I think this can be outdone in power if someone wants it that way, but even single classed offers a great deal. In fact, it is almost a multiclass character in some ways. There are tradeoffs.

I do not want them to outdo fighters in one on one fighting. If they did, would there be a point in playing a figher?
 

Irda Ranger

First Post
Lots of builds are "viable". You can play a Dex-build Halfling barbarian if you want. The issue with bladelock is that there is no build as-designed that's as good as the other classes.

A mobile blade-lock isn't especially mobile; they cannot Dash/Disengage as a Bonus Action like a ranger or rogue can. Trying to play a straight blade-lock as a mobile striker will be an OA magnet.

A tank blade-lock doesn't have the armor every other front-line class gets automatically. You can fix this with Feats, but in the mean time a real Paladin or Fighter is using those same ASI/Feat slots to pull further away from you with Heavy Armor Master or whatever. So you cannot ever be as good.

Whether you go mobile or tank, as a class that relies on spells for damage, getting into melee is asking to have your Concentration disrupted. When you only have two spells per short rest, you cannot afford to re-up a lost spell the way a Cleric or Druid can.

Honestly though any of these problems can be fixed by expanding the Invocation list just a little. Armor of the Fiend for an AC that scales with level. Tower of Iron Will for advantage on Concentration checks. Slippery Form for Dash/Disengage. Scale blade attacks at the same rate as Eldritch Blast. Etc.

It wouldn't take much to bring blade-locks to par with other classes. But as-written there's no point trying to argue they're on equal footing. The case just doesn't close.


EDIT: I should make clear that I really want blade-locks to be better because I find the standard "hang back and Eldritch Blast a lot" to be boring as sin.
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
Lots of builds are "viable". You can play a Dex-build Halfling barbarian if you want. The issue with bladelock is that there is no build as-designed that's as good as the other classes.

A mobile blade-lock isn't especially mobile; they cannot Dash/Disengage as a Bonus Action like a ranger or rogue can. Trying to play a straight blade-lock as a mobile striker will be an OA magnet.

A tank blade-lock doesn't have the armor every other front-line class gets automatically. You can fix this with Feats, but in the mean time a real Paladin or Fighter is using those same ASI/Feat slots to pull further away from you with Heavy Armor Master or whatever. So you cannot ever be as good.

Whether you go mobile or tank, as a class that relies on spells for damage, getting into melee is asking to have your Concentration disrupted. When you only have two spells per short rest, you cannot afford to re-up a lost spell the way a Cleric or Druid can.

Honestly though any of these problems can be fixed by expanding the Invocation list just a little. Armor of the Fiend for an AC that scales with level. Tower of Iron Will for advantage on Concentration checks. Slippery Form for Dash/Disengage. Scale blade attacks at the same rate as Eldritch Blast. Etc.

It wouldn't take much to bring blade-locks to par with other classes. But as-written there's no point trying to argue they're on equal footing. The case just doesn't close.


EDIT: I should make clear that I really want blade-locks to be better because I find the standard "hang back and Eldritch Blast a lot" to be boring as sin.

Thanks for your perspective. And I could not agree more with the boring nature of hang back and blast ALL of the time. I agree that they do not have the armor. Note in my original post I stated this is a problem if you want to play front line.

However, whether we use feats or Dwarves I say that an armored blade pact warlock is within reach. As to front line, is a blade pact warlock less able to swing a weapon and stand alongside a cleric a ranger or fighter? They may not do as much damage in this part of combat as a barbarian or paladin. Again, I am not sure if this is a problem.

Wearing armor, I can at a later point in the game levitate and blast down, use illusions with impunity and perhaps even be invisible. Perhaps I have mask of many faces. Yes, I get these abilities for a price. I can also potentially get two attacks a round and bring some hurt with hex and lifedrinker/thirsting blade when level appropriate.

Again, my whole point is this: If we assume no armor upgrade with a penchant for front line fighting there is a problem. I would not enjoy this likely frustrating enterprise. But gaining armor through feats or race, a blade pact character is viable and versatile with the ability to fight without multiclassing. Not at the level of the fighter, but a fighter cannot fly, see in magic darkness or be invisible either.

If we compare the loss of a "feature" familiar or Tome to gain two attacks with a heavy weapon summoned at will even if captive which can ultimately do charisma damage, I still assert you are not giving something up for nothing. Aside from a few martial classes being superior, you gain the ability to fight better than most. That to me is something. Hell, you could drop eldritch blast invocations entirely and have an armored warrior that can create absolute chaos through illusion, disguise self and invisibility alone. You could even misty step up to the bad guy and drop the hammer (or greatsword). A lot of pure fighters would have trouble getting there that fast without being encumbered along the way. And you might have a better shot at shrugging of the BBEG's spell with your Wis save proficiency.

I am not saying that you cannot find a higher damage build. I am not saying that you cannot be more efficient by dipping and cherry picking. But I am saying that a single class blade pact warlock fully armored has a lot of options and strengths and is on par with many other classes. For versatility they are at the top of my list.
 

Gadget

Adventurer
At level 5 we have 3 invocations.

I can take one of them for melee as a bladelock. The others are used however.

I have as a variant human, a second feat. However, if I pursue armor upgrades, I also get the equivalent of an ASI with two +1 for say strength.

At the cost of a feat then (since both armor feats give ASI) and one invocation, I can do what a warlock does PLUS hit like a truck in melee.

Assuming variant human is an option, yes. Assuming feats themselves (an optional rule) are used, then yes. One could just pick dwarf as a race (medium armor proficiency) and be fairly well off as well. I'll take your word on 'hitting like a truck', assuming you prioritize strength and choose a high damage two-handed pact weapon, so you will be decent in melee. You have spent significant resources to make yourself so. A Book Pact Warlock could do almost as well with Shillelagh, Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade, but that too would be a significant investment.

Do I have action surge? No. Do I have smite? No. But I am fully armored, do good melee damage, cast spells and have special abilities such as Misty Visions (underrated) and perhaps Devil's sight.

So while many combinations can make an uber character, I do not see how this is gimped in survivability, options, flavor.

Well said. I'm sure you have a fun character. While I can't speak for others, I think the 'arguments' against the single classed blade'lock seem to stem from the fact that the flavor implies a melee-ish character, but does not deliver such without a fair bit of system mastery and character resource investment beyond the obvious, or a character/play style that heavily emphasizes the light mobile skirmisher aspect. Especially in games that don't use all the optional rules like feats, multi-classing, variant human, etc.

As a result, unless we are only worried about optimization (which is fine if that is your thing) it is absurd to caution against this subclass unless we are doing the same with anything that does not top out whatever criteria is of interest. I think this can be outdone in power if someone wants it that way, but even single classed offers a great deal. In fact, it is almost a multiclass character in some ways. There are tradeoffs.

I do not want them to outdo fighters in one on one fighting. If they did, would there be a point in playing a figher?

Point taken, and I don't think anyone wants them to outdo fighters (at least not without a significant investment in limited use resources), just an effective 'gish' character. And I think many are coming at it from an optimization angle as well.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Everything in 5e is based on a story, and the story that informs the blade pact is this one: evil prince wants to be king, makes deal, knows that if the king is obviously magic'd, there will be an investigation, possibly resulting in prince not getting the crown, picks blade, uses magic to look like someone else (preferably someone who doesn't like the prince), stabs king, king dies, patsy gets executed, and prince becomes king. Is there anything in that story that screams front line combatant in heavy armor? I think the phrase "magic assassin" is much closer.

It doesn't mean you can't be a front line melee type with a bladelock, but neither the class or subclass are designed to do that.

Where does this story come from? It seems like something you're just making up right now. No offense, I just don't see it.

Anyway, the Blade Pact is just as much a magical swashbuckler, or shadowdancer type, as a magical assassin.
 

Irda Ranger

First Post
I say that an armored blade pact warlock is within reach.
No one is saying it isn't within reach. What they're saying is there's this class feature (Pact of the Blade) which imposes a huge tax (in terms of multiclassing, feats, and/or race choice) just to not suck. And that's assuming your DM allows Feats and Multiclassing! They're optional rules after all. The only not-frustrating way to play a Core Rules No-Options bladelock is with Mountain Dwarf, which seems like a stupid design to a lot of people.

Honestly if Pact of the Blade just gave access to better Invocations or armor choices this whole complaint would go away.

Like this:

Pact of the Blade
You can use your Action to create Pact weapons [note the plural] and (optionally) a shield in your empty hands. The weapons are considered magical for purposes of overcoming resistance and you are considered proficient in their use. You gain Extra Attack with your primary pact weapon at 5th level.

Armor of Shadows
You can cast Mage Armor on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components. If you have the Pact of the Blade Feature you can construct an amulet of armor that allows you to summon Light or Medium armor made of shadows instead, which you are considered proficient in. [Note that as a matter of design even if you lose your amulet you still have the Mage Armor to fall back to] You can summon shadow armor as part of the same action that summons your Pact weapons. The amulet of armor costs twice as much as any armor it can summon and if it is destroyed or lost it takes 2 days of work to fashion a new one. Shadow armor has the same statistics as ordinary armor on the equipment table. Your amulet of armor can be further enchanted to impart a +1, +2 or +3 bonus on the armor it summons. [subject to whatever rules your DM has for enchanting items]
 

As I see it, the problem is not in the bladelock, but in the eldritch blast cantrip, specially if used with agonizing blast. As long as eldritch blast exists as a combat option, and you're allowed to add your Charisma modifier as a bonus on each hit, you're just worse overall going for anything else.

I played a bladelock once, and took blast without the agonizing invocation, just for those situations where going into melee was not a valid option. Still, I found that in many combats I was making the wrong choice by going melee, because staying behind and blasting was superior in every way. If you take the fighter level, level 5 is specially cruel, because you can blast twice, but not attack twice in melee. I've seen this in play, and it was frustrating for the player to have to make that choice.

If you and your group just ignore the existence of eldritch blast, though, you can probably play a bladelock as an effective character and have a lot of fun with it. Take the fighter level for staying power in melee or go full warlock for the shadow assassin build, I don't believe one of them is necessarily superior. YMMV, as always.
 

D

dco

Guest
Only played a bladelock up to lvl 5. With the fiend pact he tanked very well against mobs, losing less hit points than the fighter and paladin, also killed my share of enemies faster when I had a short rest and armor of agathys. Disguise self at will helped a lot in and out of combat, supplanting identities and attacking with surprise. At lvl 5 he has another attack, like the rest of classes and 17AC.
The biggest problem is that you need a short rest to recover the use of the 2 spells, but the same happens to a battlemaster without dice or a monk without ki. I always try to face the weakest enemies to gain temporary hit points, and when hurt fall back and spam eldritch blast.

Personally I don't see the point for higher AC. Multiclassing can be interesting if allowed but then your spells and invocations will come later

As a DM I allow an armor invocation with 16 AC, like barkskin if someone wants a warlock using STR.
 

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