Bolstering Wizards

[DEFCON 1]

Has anyone here suggested not allowing it just because of WOTC defaults? that just seems like an odd thing to spotlight if not.

I was just making a statement of fact, nothing more than that. There was no intended reference to anyone else in the thread.

 

[FrogReaver]

Is it right to say that Wizards have languished a little, compared with the lustre of other classes in 5th? They seem (to me at least) not as joined up, with satisfying payoffs, as other classes (thinking especially about Battlemaster and Warlock). Given their possibly distinctive utility role, I wondered about bolstering them with something like -

Dual Focus
At 5th level, you develop the mental rigour needed to maintain concentration on two spells at once, which can be two versions of the same spell. Anything that interrupts your concentration, interrupts each spell separately: you can lose concentration on one while maintaining it on the other.

It sure sounds like this would break something: what?

It's too much. Though I could see such an ability being balanced as a main subclass ability of some new subclass IF it also included some stipulation that you had to make concentration saves each turn you tried to maintain 2 spells at once and that once you fail you lose either 1 or both spells.

 

[Mistwell]

Is it right to say that Wizards have languished a little, compared with the lustre of other classes in 5th?

It is not. Wizards are quite powerful in 5e, and coherent. I'd say they rival the top of the list in terms of power, and definitely do not need a power boost for that. In terms of coherency of the class, their "thing" is utility. They have extremely high level of flexibility to deal with almost any kind of challenge the party might encounter. That's not a bug, it's a feature.

 

[TallIan]

Is it right to say that Wizards have languished a little, compared with the lustre of other classes in 5th? [snip..]
It sure sounds like this would break something: what?

Languished is not the word I would choose. Wizards have, IMO, gotten the same attention most other classes have, but haven't received a bump, like some others. So classes are now mostly balanced against each other across all levels. Unlike in previous editions where wizards were rubbish at low levels and terrifying at high.

I find that my wizard can routinely turn a counter from deadly to trivial with a single spell, either dealing with large numbers of enemies all at once or dealing with a single deadly enemy. This is done intentionally - its not a flukey roll of the dice but a statistically likely outcome. Usually this is due to a concentration spell, so being able to hold concentration on two spells will significantly boost a wizards power.

Even if you limit one of those concentration spells to "self" as a defensive buff you are still boosting the wizard as concentration spells that are "self" usually make the wizard far less fragile. So doing this will leave the wizard with all his current power and remove a significant weakness. Wizards are not quite the glass cannons they used to be, but they are still pretty fragile.

EDIT: forgot to add, that I find most of the wizard's flair comes just before combat, or in the opening round. Once combat actually starts I could really leave the table as my wizard will usually just be avoiding getting hit so his concentration isn't compromised and throwing the occasional cantrip. The damage output isn't exactly significant as mostly wizard cantrips don't get bonuses like weapon damage does.

So if you are looking for flashy round to round "BOOM!" maybe wizard isn't for you - possibly evoker, but sorcerer makes for a much better blaster caster or buffer. Wizard is more about environment manipulation and crowd control.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I think it might be interesting to actually restrict the wizards spell list. So So most if not all of your spells have to come from your school. Maybe there are feeds and allow you to Cross schools once you've selected one. That might make them feel tighter the problem is that some schools have a lot more spells know the schools.

 

[TallIan]

I think it might be interesting to actually restrict the wizards spell list. So So most if not all of your spells have to come from your school. Maybe there are feeds and allow you to Cross schools once you've selected one. That might make them feel tighter the problem is that some schools have a lot more spells know the schools.

It sounds interesting but the schools are not well balanced against each other or across the spell levels.

Look at abjuration for example; at level 1 it has one spell that is virtually a spell slot tax (mage armour) another that becomes essential once you have a few slots to spare (shield) and a ritual that probably makes most mages spell books (alarm). Then at 2nd level you can lock doors ??? and at level 3 you have one of the staple spells for wizards - counterspell.

I think your idea could be fun, but not would require a LOT more work than simply stating that you can only cast spells from your school.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

In one iteration of D&D (I forget which 2e?), our DM made three classes of Wizard:

Wizard: Evocation, Abjuration, Divination
Illusionist: Illusion, Abjuration - and something else...
Possessor: Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration

(That may not be exactly right, but you get the idea)

It really made each type of wizard unique. Possessors tended to lean heavily towards evil...

I kind of wish 5e had made summoning more of a thing for conjurers. besides the 30hps for summoned creatures, They seem to focus more on the creation, movement/teleportation side of conjuration. I think conjurers should be summoning demons and making pacts with Powerful beings...but maybe that's the Warlock's schtick.

But to bring my post back on topic, Conjurers can't have their concentration broken for conjuration spells. Letting them concentrate on multiple spells could be a problem.

 

[clearstream]

I am seeing a pattern tho - both this thread and the warlock malaise one took a rather amorphous feeling of a problem of satisfaction and went straight at major changes to hard core mechanics and output as a "proposal" to fix the feel.

Not really. I have extensive reasons behind what I suggest. A strategy I use to swiftly prop-up or knock-down a concept is to peg it out near the edge of the envelope. And avoid investing time in precision costings and so on, until after I can sound out if it is reasonable. To give some insight, if we ask ourselves "How might we cause more interactions across things Wizards can do" and consider landmark games such as Cosmic Encounter which basically nailed the answer: we look for combinatorial strategies. Concentration blocks combinatorial strategies (by one character, in regard to their Concentration spells). Many contemporary games benefit hugely from combinatorial mechanics: it's one of the most important discoveries in gaming of the last century. Wizards play out like a grab-bag of powerful, but individual effects. The question isn't one of power, it's of whether more intrigue and diversity can be achieved?

It's true I focus on crunch. That's what interests me. For me, the play comes more out of the crunch than the fluff. Or maybe it is better to say that the fluff is spun out of the crunch? Hence if I want to see diversity in Wizard play, I don't want a novel about their funny frolics and frivolous frocks.

In closing, in this thread it was clear from the first few posts that double concentration is a bad concept - or at least not a good concept in terms of my rough goals - so I responded very promptly acknowledging that. (By the end of page 1, I'd done so!) In other cases, it's not so clear, or I don't yet to my taste see any convincing arguments. Yet I'm grateful and highly value what other posters contribute. It helps illuminate all kinds of new things, new aspects of the game, and factors bearing on a concept that I might very well (and often have!) overlooked.

(NB: I have no "malaise" with Warlocks. I like Warlocks. Very concretely, I want to broaden their viable strategies, which right now are demonstrably over-shadowed by Agonizing EB.)

 

[Leatherhead]

Warlocks and Sorcerers would benefit greatly from a class-merger.

 

[Li Shenron]

Is it right to say that Wizards have languished a little, compared with the lustre of other classes in 5th?

Blah... everyone always has their own pet peeve about a class or two being 'lacking', but Wizards are not one of them. They are also the class together with Cleric which gets by far the largest variety from archetypes.