Bolstering Wizards

[André Soares]

I think it might be interesting to actually restrict the wizards spell list. So So most if not all of your spells have to come from your school. Maybe there are feeds and allow you to Cross schools once you've selected one. That might make them feel tighter the problem is that some schools have a lot more spells know the schools.

Well, for this to be feaseble you'd have to rework the entire Wizard list to balance the schools not only against each other, but also against the more flexible lists of other classes. The satple feature of the Wizard is their flexibilitty, in limiting to the school only you'd make them a lot less flexible.

 

[5ekyu]

Warlocks and Sorcerers would benefit greatly from a class-merger.

or a swap... shifting metamagic into warlocks (sorcery points becoming patron favors recovered at short rests) and invocations into sorcerers (with say a half dozen base ones and a half-dozen for each sub-class but still only choosing the same number at any time) and i personally feel you have made both more thematic and more sound overall.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

It sounds interesting but the schools are. Or we’ll balanced against each other or across the spell levels.

Look at abjuration for example; at level 1 it has one spell that is virtually a spell slot tax (mage armour) another that becomes essential once you have a few slots to spare (shield) and a ritual that probably makes most mages spell books (alarm). Then at 2nd level you can lock doors ??? and at level 3 you have one of the staple spells for wizards - counterspell.

I think your idea could be fun, but not would require a LOT more work than simply stating that you can only cast spells from your school.

Yes, that was sort of the point of my last sentence. I would like that idea but it would need some more work. You need more spells and/or a mechanic for grabbing some spells from other schools.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Well, for this to be feaseble you'd have to rework the entire Wizard list to balance the schools not only against each other, but also against the more flexible lists of other classes. The satple feature of the Wizard is their flexibilitty, in limiting to the school only you'd make them a lot less flexible.

Yes, it was more a thought of how it could have been done differently from the begining. It might be more feasible to give wizards some type of bonus for using schools in there list. Maybe they can cast one without expending a spell slot or something similar.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Yes, it was more a thought of how it could have been done differently from the begining. It might be more feasible to give wizards some type of bonus for using schools in there list. Maybe they can cast one without expending a spell slot or something similar.

So like 3rd edition then?

 

[ClaytonCross]

Is it right to say that Wizards have languished a little, compared with the lustre of other classes in 5th? They seem (to me at least) not as joined up, with satisfying payoffs, as other classes (thinking especially about Battlemaster and Warlock). Given their possibly distinctive utility role, I wondered about bolstering them with something like -

Dual Focus
At 5th level, you develop the mental rigour needed to maintain concentration on two spells at once, which can be two versions of the same spell. Anything that interrupts your concentration, interrupts each spell separately: you can lose concentration on one while maintaining it on the other.

It sure sounds like this would break something: what?

I would only allow any character to have concentration on two spells if those spells were not cast on or directly effecting themselves or enemies. This means it encourages wizards as party buffer's (which was always a stated goal from some of the Designers videos an posts.) It is intended that they are not the blunt damage of the group but the multi-tool answering problems with solutions. Rituals and larger number of spells known and prepared are the key stone of that. With proper spell selection wizards can always be useful out of combat and with enough of selection to adapt to changing battle fields. Giving them additional damage or the ability to enhance themselves more pulls away from what makes the class its strongest.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

So like 3rd edition then?

I don't know I never played 3rd

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Warlocks and Sorcerers would benefit greatly from a class-merger.

Mechanically, each class does seem to fix a lot of complaints about the other class: sorcerer players who complain they can't take any "fun" spells because they have to take "the spells all sorcerers have to take" wouldn't have to worry about damage spells with eldritch blast, and warlock players who want to cast more noncantrip spells can certainly do so as sorcerers. [Good thing they are easy to multiclass].

Storywise, I suppose you could divide the warlock's story into the wizard, sorcerer, and paladin. There could be a "law school" wizard who makes a deal to get pact spells added to his/her spellbook (still has to prepare them to use them) and a fighting familiar. Instead of just "my daddy was a devil or fey", infernal and fey origin sorcerer could also reference becoming a sorcerer because you made a deal (first subclass feature: you know the eldritch blast cantrip and you can use a spell point to add you charisma modifier to the damage each time you cast it). The bladepact warlock (particularly the hexblade) could be lumped into the paladin (oath of the blade?), in some ways invocations would be a better feature than spells for the paladin, especially if there were some angel-themed invocations (have to change divine smite, maybe it just automatically works on enemies specified by your oath [fiends and undead for devotion], and you need an invocation to use it X number of times per day for other enemies).

 

[Quickleaf]

Not really. I have extensive reasons behind what I suggest. A strategy I use to swiftly prop-up or knock-down a concept is to peg it out near the edge of the envelope. And avoid investing time in precision costings and so on, until after I can sound out if it is reasonable. To give some insight, if we ask ourselves "How might we cause more interactions across things Wizards can do" and consider landmark games such as Cosmic Encounter which basically nailed the answer: we look for combinatorial strategies. Concentration blocks combinatorial strategies (by one character, in regard to their Concentration spells). Many contemporary games benefit hugely from combinatorial mechanics: it's one of the most important discoveries in gaming of the last century. Wizards play out like a grab-bag of powerful, but individual effects. The question isn't one of power, it's of whether more intrigue and diversity can be achieved?

It's true I focus on crunch. That's what interests me. For me, the play comes more out of the crunch than the fluff. Or maybe it is better to say that the fluff is spun out of the crunch? Hence if I want to see diversity in Wizard play, I don't want a novel about their funny frolics and frivolous frocks.

In closing, in this thread it was clear from the first few posts that double concentration is a bad concept - or at least not a good concept in terms of my rough goals - so I responded very promptly acknowledging that. (By the end of page 1, I'd done so!) In other cases, it's not so clear, or I don't yet to my taste see any convincing arguments. Yet I'm grateful and highly value what other posters contribute. It helps illuminate all kinds of new things, new aspects of the game, and factors bearing on a concept that I might very well (and often have!) overlooked.

(NB: I have no "malaise" with Warlocks. I like Warlocks. Very concretely, I want to broaden their viable strategies, which right now are demonstrably over-shadowed by Agonizing EB.)

Uff, that was a hard read. But I got your gist.

If it's creative spell combos that you're looking to include, there are certainly ways you can do that (e.g. casting any fire spell onto a grease spell) without needing to undermine the Concentration mechanic to do it. I'm not saying Concentration is perfect (in fact, I think the ways it can be disrupted need reexamination). However, it's core mechanic works well in fulfilling four functions:

1. Preventing "Broken" Spellcasting. Concentration prevents a host of undesirable situations that were present in past editions.

One example of an undesirable situation would be a spellcaster creating a wall of force or Otiluke's resilient sphere around himself when surrounded then dropping a cloudkill. While such a scenario might make the spellcaster drool, it really isn't fun for anyone else at the table. Other PCs are either seeking shelter in the force field or finding ways to survive within the poison gas. There's really a limited set of options to deal with this scenario, mostly involving specific spells like gust of wind, dispel magic, and disintegrate. And a villain using this strategy against the PCs would most certainly be a drag for the players, especially a group that didn't have the right spells to break this "turtling" combination.

Another example would be casting banishment or maze on a monster and then delayed blast fireball or glyph of warding or some other "trap" spell in the space they will eventually return to.

Another example would be hold person and any ongoing damage area of effect spell. And so on.

2. Unified Mechanic for Past Edition Language. Many folks don't realize this, but 3e and especially AD&D were rife with language in spell descriptions like "by concentrating on this spell" or "with continued concentration", etc. Concentration reinforces what was restricted to narrative description and often disregarded in past editions.

3. Limits the Spellcaster's Turn Length. Everyone who has played D&D across a couple editions has experienced a spellcaster's turn take agonizingly long as they manage multiple ongoing spells. Concentration (and the cantrip/bonus action spell restriction) helps reduce that effect greatly, making a spellcaster player's turn not take much longer than any other player's.

4. Limits Swiss-Army-Knife-Wizard Overshadowing Other PCs. It's easy to imagine a mage casting expeditious retreat (Dash as a bonus action) on himself *and* fog cloud around the trolls, and all of a sudden then the spellcaster is out-roguing the rogue while *simultaneously* performing his function as a mage.

While D&D historically lets mages momentarily step on the toes of other classes (e.g. arcane lock, knock), at least 5e provides some limits on that with Concentration.

 

[Guest 6801328]

A feat with a prerequisite so a variant human can't grab it at first level.

Not that I necessarily agree with making double concentration a Feat, but why the fear of letting human variants get it at first level? That says to me that you think it's more powerful than other feats.