Bolstering Wizards

[smbakeresq]

I think the bigger issue with wizards is that within each level there are spells that are just terrible and others that are just great and must haves. It makes all wizards sort of the same. Even spells that seem the same are far apart.

Look at Conjure Minor Elementals compared to summon greater demon. It would seem they are similar but different in choice of creature. It’s not close. Summon Demon is far stronger choice of better creature and takes 1 action as opposed to 1 minute to cast. Yes the creature gets a save, but even if it makes the save and breaks free it still sticks around and causes mayhem.

I get the elementals are friendly, but the power level between creatures isn’t close, and the casting time difference is an absolute killer.

Then of course Polymorph just towers over all other 4th level spells.

This is just an example, but throughout the spell lists there are just spells that are never taken. The real spell list for wizards (and all other spellcasters) is about half of the list of spells in the books.


There should be an employee that goes through the spell lists and revises then to make more viable choices at the various levels.

 

[5ekyu]

I think the bigger issue with wizards is that within each level there are spells that are just terrible and others that are just great and must haves. It makes all wizards sort of the same. Even spells that seem the same are far apart.

Look at Conjure Minor Elementals compared to summon greater demon. It would seem they are similar but different in choice of creature. It’s not close. Summon Demon is far stronger choice of better creature and takes 1 action as opposed to 1 minute to cast. Yes the creature gets a save, but even if it makes the save and breaks free it still sticks around and causes mayhem.

I get the elementals are friendly, but the power level between creatures isn’t close, and the casting time difference is an absolute killer.

Then of course Polymorph just towers over all other 4th level spells.

This is just an example, but throughout the spell lists there are just spells that are never taken. The real spell list for wizards (and all other spellcasters) is about half of the list of spells in the books.


There should be an employee that goes through the spell lists and revises then to make more viable choices at the various levels.

But let me ask, if conjure elementals reached very similar danger beasties and had similar casting time etc yto call demons - then dont you end up with just two different flavors of the same spell?

Is it really *taking a different spell* if they produce almost identical outcomes?

I am not arguing for having two summons at the same level where one is clearly better, but a mechanical nose count comparison of "which is better for combat" is not gonna lead to a bigger spell lists, just a list of more spell names for the same small number of results, right?

To me (I agree that if the demon spell drawbacks dont come up it's too much better than the elemental ones ) I would want spells to differentiate between friendly summons and hostile summons much more than they do.

Hostile demon - short duration 1m - if three saves made its released. Orders take bonus actions.

Friendly elemental - duration 8 hours with concentration but when conc fails 1m left. Orders no action. Conc over or lapsed - release. Release let's demon choose for remaining time to do whatever it wants or ho jome.

With those setups, the elemental can be lower cr because its longer and more reliable without action drains. Casting time 1m no problem cuz it's long term.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I don't think elementals are not hostile to the caster (at least the ones from conjure elemental). It is more a case of hostile for elementals and extra hostile for demons. Celestials are the ones who aren't hostile to you. If you lose concentration, the celestial just disappears, but the elemental might attack you (and what DM wouldn't have the elemental attack the caster?). Even if you order the unicorn to run down orphans, all it will do is ignore you (honestly they should have had "if you give it two orders that violate its alignment, the celestial will become hostile and hang around for an hour after the second order.")

 

[5ekyu]

I don't think elementals are not hostile to the caster (at least the ones from conjure elemental). It is more a case of hostile for elementals and extra hostile for demons. Celestials are the ones who aren't hostile to you. If you lose concentration, the celestial just disappears, but the elemental might attack you (and what DM wouldn't have the elemental attack the caster?). Even if you order the unicorn to run down orphans, all it will do is ignore you (honestly they should have had "if you give it two orders that violate its alignment, the celestial will become hostile and hang around for an hour after the second order.")

"The summoned creatures are friendly to you and your companions. "

 

[jgsugden]

Hsving played a wizard for a good portion of the 5E era - piffle. NOthing i needed. They're fun, engaging and evocative.

 

[smbakeresq]

But let me ask, if conjure elementals reached very similar danger beasties and had similar casting time etc yto call demons - then dont you end up with just two different flavors of the same spell?

Is it really *taking a different spell* if they produce almost identical outcomes?

I am not arguing for having two summons at the same level where one is clearly better, but a mechanical nose count comparison of "which is better for combat" is not gonna lead to a bigger spell lists, just a list of more spell names for the same small number of results, right?

To me (I agree that if the demon spell drawbacks dont come up it's too much better than the elemental ones ) I would want spells to differentiate between friendly summons and hostile summons much more than they do.

Hostile demon - short duration 1m - if three saves made its released. Orders take bonus actions.

Friendly elemental - duration 8 hours with concentration but when conc fails 1m left. Orders no action. Conc over or lapsed - release. Release let's demon choose for remaining time to do whatever it wants or ho jome.

With those setups, the elemental can be lower cr because its longer and more reliable without action drains. Casting time 1m no problem cuz it's long term.

It drains concentration for 8 hours, that's enough. You wont use them that long.

 

[TiwazTyrsfist]

Honestly, my Diviner has been THE most powerful and useful character I have played in all 5e. Having two d20 hacks per long rest is just absurdly good. Some of the wizard sub-classes are less impressive, but really a lot of the bonus powers that different schools get are incredibly nice.

 

[5ekyu]

It drains concentration for 8 hours, that's enough. You wont use them that long.

Obviously it only "drains" concentration until you stop using them. So not sure those two sentences work together.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

"The summoned creatures are friendly to you and your companions. "

Go ahead and tell us how it was so friendly that as soon as the coercion stopped it was still friendly. But wait, I have a quote too:

"If your concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes hostile and might attack .It can't be dismissed by you, and disappears 1 hour after you summoned it. "

I think my quote trumps yours.

 

[Guest 6801328]

If anything I'd put a cap on the number of rituals that can be cast between rests.

Or maybe have an increasing chance of a terrible mishap, whenever you cast a ritual. Yeah, that'd be more fun.