Can a Barbarian/Bard inspire courage while raging?

[LokiDR]

Bullpucky. The warlord ability nowhere states that while a warlord can inspire courage while raging that a bard cannot. There is no letter of the rule in this situation, only inferance and interpretation. Just please don't try to come off as though you had a more solid authority on this than you actually do.

The abilites are different. Different books, different authors, different names, different classes. As such, the ability is not subject to restrictions that may be placed on bardic song.

Do you really want this to degrade into a shouting match?

I stated the whole situation is based on weak semantics which imply a meaning. If you believe there is a different interpretation, don't start lobbing badly obfuscated obscenities at me. I never stated to be anything other than I am, and you would do well to remember that in the future.

 

[LokiDR]

O.K. for (what I hope to be) the last time...

You CAN use supernatural abilities while in a rage. Inspire courage is a supernatural ability, therefore you can use Inspire courage while in a rage.

Speaking a command word does not require a concentration skill check ever. Yet the Sage ruled you could not activate command word items while in rage. The case is not as simple as you would like to make it.

Unless you don't want to bother with it and just run it the way you want.

 

[Magic Rub]

The abilities are different. Different books, different authors, different names, different classes.

.

No, actually it has the same name, & same effect as the bardic ability (read it again). You really should back your argument up with some type of facts. Yes it is in a different book, by a different author & it is a different class, but they all work off the same core rules.

As such, the ability is not subject to restrictions that may be placed on bardic song.

.

"...may be placed..." As a DM I might say that fighters can cast spells as a wizard, but that doesn't make it an official rule.

Speaking a command word does not require a concentration skill check ever. Yet the Sage ruled you could not activate command word items while in rage. The case is not as simple as you would like to make it.

Activating a magical item is not the issue here, a magical item is not a super natural ability. I'm not even going to get in to the whole sage aspect.


The case is just as simple as I would like to make it.

The Written Facts as per official/published Wizards of the coast materials in support of using Inspire courage while in a rage:
1 - Inspire courage is a super natural ability
2 - Supernatural abilities do not require concentration
3 - There is written precedent that you can sing wile in a rage, proving that it requires neither patience nor concentration to do. Admittedly it may not be good singing, but then it doesn't need to be. (yes this maybe void depending on the DM but there is written proof that it is possible - Battle Rager PrC)
4 - You can speak while you are in a rage (it requires neither patience nor concentration to do)
5 - Supernatural abilities require no command based activation system (you are either doing them or you are not)
6 - Inspire courage needs only prerequisites to be obtained & function, there is no skill check involved. (it requires neither patience nor concentration to do)
7 - Once obtained (prerequisites having been met) to function properly Inspire courage requires only that which has been proven in writing, the ability to at minimum (in this case) vocalize in some form that the recipients of the benefits can hear (sing, chant, poetry... ect ect ect).
8 - Inspire courage states while you use it you "can fight" meaning you can take any Melee & ranged attacks you would normally get (ie; the basic hack & slash).
9 - If the super natural ability Inspire courage took patience or concentration to do, you would not be able to partake in your normal Melee & ranged attacks (see point 10)
10 - Concentration based skills, spells & abilities (with possible exceptions, none that I can think of off the top of my head) all require a standard action for each round of combat in order to be maintained.

I did not list the "Warlord" PrC as a source of facts for "Can use the ability" side of the argument because they are opinion based points, regardless of precedent & you would discount them.


The Written Facts as per official/published Wizards of the coast materials in opposition to using Inspire courage while in a rage:
1 - The Warlord PrC is in a different book, by different authors & it is a different class from bard & barbarian.

 

[melkoriii]

Speaking a command word does not require a concentration skill check ever. Yet the Sage ruled you could not activate command word items while in rage. The case is not as simple as you would like to make it.

Unless you don't want to bother with it and just run it the way you want.

Hear Hear.

 

[LokiDR]

Is there a comprehensive list of what a raging barbarian can and can not do? I don't know of one. Because of this, you can not simply say "it doesn't require a concentration check, therefore the ability can be used while raging."

Could a barbarian coutersong while raging? That is a supernatural abiltity. Druid's Thousand Faces? Monk's Wholeness of Body? Command undead? Hide in Plain Sight?

You can blow untill you are blue in the face, Magic Rub, it doesn't change the fact that neither side is official. Because there is no clear cut ruling on this, each DM should make his own decision.

 

[Sejs]

Do you really want this to degrade into a shouting match?

No, indeed I do not.

I stated the whole situation is based on weak semantics which imply a meaning.

Couldn't agree with you more. I'm behind you 100% there; I brought up the Orc Warlord's ability to Inspire Courage while raging to point out a printed precident. I did not in any way want to say that it was a concrete rule that bards can do X because warlords can do Y. I did, however, not want any confusion as to the nature of that ability - that they arn't two seperate abilities, but the same ability used by two different classes.

If you believe there is a different interpretation, don't start lobbing badly obfuscated obscenities at me. I never stated to be anything other than I am, and you would do well to remember that in the future.

If you feel that I have insulted you, then I appologise. If you picked up any hostile emotional undercurrent in what I said, then I appologise. There was never any intended. There were no badly obfuscated obsceneties, and as to stating to be anything other than what you are, etc. The only point I took contention with was the use of letter of the rules when there is no letter to the rule in that case. I said please, and thought I was being polite. Again, if you feel that I have insulted you, then I appologise.


Thank you.

 

[Sejs]

Could a barbarian coutersong while raging? That is a supernatural abiltity. Druid's Thousand Faces? Monk's Wholeness of Body? Command undead? Hide in Plain Sight?

Personal oppinion:

-Countersong: No, as it requires a Perform check and basing from my admittadly limited real life experience, such would require patience and/or concentration to be good enough to effectivly Countersong. Flip side of that coin though, and part of the original discussion ~ Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness do not require Perform skill checks.

-Druid's Thousand Faces: Yes, as it is a supernatural ability useable at will, that requires no skill check.

-Monk's Wholeness of Body: Yes, as it is a supernatural ability useable at will, that requires no skill check.

-Command Undead: No, as it says under commanding undead (p140, phb) that you must take a standard action to give mental orders to undead under your mental control. A standard action to perform a wholly mental task to me indicates concentration. Additionally, it states that you can command a single undead that has more hit dice than you, but you must concentrate continually as with mantaining a spell to do so. To me that says no commanding undead activly while raging.

-Hide in Plain Sight: Yes, as while it does require a skill check (Hide), it's not of the same Patience and Concentration type that Perform, Intuit Direction, Handle Animal, or say Appraise would fall under.

Again, just personal oppinion.

^_^

 

[Magic Rub]

Is there a comprehensive list of what a raging barbarian can and can not do? I don't know of one. Because of this, you can not simply say "it doesn't require a concentration check, therefore the ability can be used while raging."

I could simply say that. I didn't say that, but I could. Your quazi-quote is not what I had said. Spells "require a concentration check", that's a different thing all together.

Could a barbarian coutersong while raging? That is a supernatural abiltity. Druid's Thousand Faces? Monk's Wholeness of Body? Command undead? Hide in Plain Sight?

See Sejs last post.

You can blow untill you are blue in the face, Magic Rub, it doesn't change the fact that neither side is official. Because there is no clear cut ruling on this, each DM should make his own decision.

I know I can also "blow" till I'm green, blue, pink, dusty rose, striped, stone grey, ect ect ect. in the face.

I never said it was a printed rule, I simply stated my opinion, (You should read the disclaimer link in my sig.) & backed that with as much of the printed rules as I could. You stated your opinions as well. You don't agree with mine, & I don't see a reason to agree with yours on this issue. If you choose to play a different way, cool beans. I fully agree that each DM should make his or her own decision on this matter. One way or the other it really makes little difference as long as every one is having fun.

See ya mang.

 

[Ukyo the undead]

I really think the supernatural nature of the bardic power " inspire courage" kills the doubt, if its a rule issue. If a supernatural ability can be used while in rage, this bardic power can too, since its also an SA.

And in flavor territory, we all should accept that the bard dont have to sing to inspire courage. He can enter in a trance while ranging, and start to recite a poetry, or begin to "hummmmmm" and go killing. Or he can simply start moving with such grace and precision that he start insipring people to think " Im feelling like i could do that too"...

 

[Particle_Man]

Think of Samuel L. Jackson's biblical speech in Pulp Fiction just before he blows people away.

Heck, I found THAT to be pretty inspiring!