Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[Kerrick]

I've been going over my revised monsters using the v5 rules and assigning ECLs instead of CRs. One thing I realized, though - ECL is more than CR, not less. I was going to assign ECLs in place of HD for spell effects like blasphemy, since they're more accurate, but would it be better to use CR instead?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

I've been going over my revised monsters using the v5 rules and assigning ECLs instead of CRs. One thing I realized, though - ECL is more than CR, not less. I was going to assign ECLs in place of HD for spell effects like blasphemy, since they're more accurate, but would it be better to use CR instead?

Thats a good question. As a rough guide we can determine CR to be 2/3rds ECL. For the divinity templates I set Hit Dice as equal to 1/2 ECL. Thusly Hit Dice (as a very broad average) would be 3/4 CR. However, because different Hit Dice types have variable power, I'd probably suggest using CR for better balance.

 

[Kerrick]

Thats a good question. As a rough guide we can determine CR to be 2/3rds ECL. For the divinity templates I set Hit Dice as equal to 1/2 ECL. Thusly Hit Dice (as a very broad average) would be 3/4 CR. However, because different Hit Dice types have variable power, I'd probably suggest using CR for better balance.

Damn. I was hoping to eliminate CR for monsters altogether - they'd all be rated by ECL. When you throw together a bunch of monsters, you use the EL calculator, and there you go. CR would be limited to traps, hazards, and challenges - anything inanimate. Using ECLs would make combining monsters and making monster PCs much easier, since you can dump that stupid LA system.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick matey!

Damn. I was hoping to eliminate CR for monsters altogether - they'd all be rated by ECL. When you throw together a bunch of monsters, you use the EL calculator, and there you go. CR would be limited to traps, hazards, and challenges - anything inanimate. Using ECLs would make combining monsters and making monster PCs much easier, since you can dump that stupid LA system.

Well once you know the relationship between CR and ECL then theres probably no reason why you couldn't remove one. Evn thinking about it again theres no reason why you couldn't use ECL for this. That said, an ECL 17 (having 9th-level spells) is the same as a CR 11. From memory I don't remember too many CR 11-15 critters having 9th-level spell-like abilities.

 

[Kerrick]

Well once you know the relationship between CR and ECL then theres probably no reason why you couldn't remove one. Evn thinking about it again theres no reason why you couldn't use ECL for this. That said, an ECL 17 (having 9th-level spells) is the same as a CR 11. From memory I don't remember too many CR 11-15 critters having 9th-level spell-like abilities.

Ohhh, right, right - I forgot that you usually face multiple creatures, which means they'd have lower ECLs individually. Duh.


Quick (unrelated) question: Since abominations have full hp/HD, would they get a high CR/HD rating than normal outsiders (i.e., more than 0.7/HD)?

And another one: If I make a monster from scratch, do I use the "before" or "after" modifiers for size? I'm sure I've asked this before, but I can't remember.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick mate!

Apologies for the slow reply, ENWorld was loading so slow yesterday for me.

Ohhh, right, right - I forgot that you usually face multiple creatures, which means they'd have lower ECLs individually. Duh.

Indeed.

Quick (unrelated) question: Since abominations have full hp/HD, would they get a high CR/HD rating than normal outsiders (i.e., more than 0.7/HD)?

I'd normally just treat that as a nominal one off +1 ECL. In fact I think I break all that down in Ascension at the start of the divinity templates.

And another one: If I make a monster from scratch, do I use the "before" or "after" modifiers for size? I'm sure I've asked this before, but I can't remember.

Either. The before or after simply refers to size 'templates' where you have either already factored in the ability score changes or have not. The higher total is the one where you have not.

 

[wizuriel]

Hey, new to DND and was advised to check out your system in making encounters. Was fine till I saw this example (yeah sorry for threadneocromancy but thread seems still active and figured better than starting a new thread)
so for 5 lvl 5 pcs

*Goes and grabs Grim Tales*...
The Party are EL 14
5 x CR 4 (5th level + standard point buy = ECL 6) = 20
CR 15 = EL 18
EL 18 (5 characters = -4 EL) becomes EL 14
Therefore a lone EL 14 (CR 10-11) is a 50/50 encounter for that party.

from my understanding, each character has ECL 6 (5 for lvl and 1 with a std point buy), so they have a combined CR of 30. CR 30 would give them EL21. modify that by the numbers to get a final total of EL17? Don't see how 14 works (though that would seem to make more sense as the lvl 20ish party from the pdf had an EL of 22).
assuming its 17 though with the changes to cr*2 el+6 would a cr 30 party have an el of 41?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello there wizuriel!

Hey, new to DND and was advised to check out your system in making encounters.

By, new to D&D do you mean 3rd Edition (I presume?). If so, have you ever considered 4th Edition.

Was fine till I saw this example so for 5 lvl 5 pcs

Ah yes, I see where you are going wrong...

(yeah sorry for threadneocromancy but thread seems still active and figured better than starting a new thread)

No worries dude.

from my understanding, each character has ECL 6 (5 for lvl and 1 with a std point buy), so they have a combined CR of 30.

...this is your mistake.

You see, ECL 6 = CR 4, because CR is always 2/3rds ECL. So the 5 PCs are (for the purpose of that calculation) CR 20, not CR 30.

CR 20 = EL 18, adjusted for 5 party members is EL 14 (-4).

EL 14 = CR 10-11

Don't see how 14 works (though that would seem to make more sense as the lvl 20ish party from the pdf had an EL of 22).

Its an easy mistake to make, and looking over Grim Tales its not immediately obvious where I explain CR = 2/3rds ECL.

assuming its 17 though with the changes to cr*2 el+6 would a cr 30 party have an el of 41?

Are you refering to changes being made in Version 6 of the CR/EL document? Where the CR*2 = EL+4 dynamic has been changed? If so, those changes only apply to party (or monster) numbers. So instead of this...

CR 20 = EL 18, adjusted for 5 party members is EL 14 (-4). EL 14 = CR 10-11

you would have this...

CR 20 = EL 18, adjusted for 5 party members is EL 12 (-6). EL 12 = CR 7

Hope that helps a bit.

I'm happy to help you with any examples you might have until you get the hang of it.

 

[Kerrick]

Since someone brought this up... is there a way to convert ECLs directly to ELs without having to mess with CRs?

 

[wizuriel]

Hey cheers but still confused with characters. The example in the pdf has
20th-level Rogue*; 20th-level Wizard*; 15th-level Monk Half-
Dragon* (ECL 19) and an 18th-level Cleric* = EL 22
*Each created with Standard Point Buy ability scores (CR +1)

so ECL is 21+21+20+19 = 81, guves them a CR of 54 but thats only an EL of 19

edit:
yeah not having any luck with this . Using ochre jelly so far have

OCHRE jelly
6 (mindless ooze) = 2.7

Factors = 12.16
trait (mindless ooze) = 1.9
large = 0.4
climb = 0.2
slow = -0.4
fullattack (2d4) = 0.5
constrict = 0.35
imp grab = 0.2
special attack poison = .15

split (assuming the actual splitting was handled in the type cost)
immunity (eletricity, slash, piercing from split) = 11

ability = -1.3
skills = 0.16
no equipment = -1?

so would that be an ECL of 14.86? cr mentioned is 5 after golden rule