Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[wizuriel]

just to clarify than, the values printed in appendix 1 Revised Challenge Ratings are really ECL not CR? Likewise the lvl 20ish party that 20 is ECL not EL?

 

[Kerrick]

If there is any ambiguity its probably my fault. However, in my defense its a confusing subject at the best of times and previous versions of the CR/EL system did use the term CR to describe ECL (just to increase any confusion).

Wait a minute. V5 says that "For those people who wish to use the Silver Rule:

Monster ECL (without PC equipment)

If CR < 20: Monster (CR Result -1) x0.85.
If CR > 19: Monster CR Result -4.

The examples you give are the babau (ECL 11, ((CR Result 14.115 - 1) x 0.85)), and the pit fiend (ECL 41 (CR Result 45.179-4))

So, from this, it would appear that I really screwed the pooch. The way I understood it (and how I've been doing it) is:

Find the CR Result.

Apply the Golden Rule.

Apply the Silver Rule (if GR is >20, subtract 3; if it's under, multiply by 0.85).

Multiply the Silver Rule result by 1.52 to get the ECL (since CR = 2/3 ECL)

If you hadn't mentioned this, I never would have caught it.

Although... shouldn't we be using the Golden Rule instead of the initial CR result, since class levels/HD should always comprise 50%+ of a creature's CR? This should apply to ECL too, right?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy wizuriel!

just to clarify than, the values printed in appendix 1 Revised Challenge Ratings are really ECL not CR?

Not sure what version you are using. An easy test is to look at the Balor final total. ECL would be about 30 ish, CR would be about 20 ish.

Likewise the lvl 20ish party that 20 is ECL not EL?

Correct.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick dude!

Wait a minute. V5 says that "For those people who wish to use the Silver Rule:

Monster ECL (without PC equipment)

If CR < 20: Monster (CR Result -1) x0.85.
If CR > 19: Monster CR Result -4.

The examples you give are the babau (ECL 11, ((CR Result 14.115 - 1) x 0.85)), and the pit fiend (ECL 41 (CR Result 45.179-4))

So, from this, it would appear that I really screwed the pooch. The way I understood it (and how I've been doing it) is:

Find the CR Result.

Apply the Golden Rule.

Apply the Silver Rule (if GR is >20, subtract 3; if it's under, multiply by 0.85).

Multiply the Silver Rule result by 1.52 to get the ECL (since CR = 2/3 ECL)

If you hadn't mentioned this, I never would have caught it.

Its confusing at the best of times.

I should point out that in Version 6, silver rules (x0.85) is applied at even epic levels (not simply -3 at factors 20+)

Although... shouldn't we be using the Golden Rule instead of the initial CR result, since class levels/HD should always comprise 50%+ of a creature's CR? This should apply to ECL too, right?

The golden rule works to support the 'HD should be 50%' rule. Thats why the golden rule was created.

 

[Kerrick]

I should point out that in Version 6, silver rules (x0.85) is applied at even epic levels (not simply -3 at factors 20+)

Hmm, good to know. That makes things easier.

The golden rule works to support the 'HD should be 50%' rule. Thats why the golden rule was created.

Well, yeah...

I was looking over the formulae again, and I think I am using the right ones. I've got: CR total; HD factor (which is actually double the value, used for Golden Rule); Golden Rule; Silver Rule (which I probably don't need), and ECL, which is (CR total - 1) * 0.85.

If, as you say, though, HD should always be 1/2 the CR/ECL, you can't use (CR total - 1) *0.85 - it has to be a secondary number, which is the result after the Golden Rule is applied. Unless you mean (GR - 1) * 0.85? That would put our friend the ochre jelly at ECL 5, and the belker at ECL 6.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I was looking over the formulae again, and I think I am using the right ones. I've got: CR total; HD factor (which is actually double the value, used for Golden Rule); Golden Rule; Silver Rule (which I probably don't need), and ECL, which is (CR total - 1) * 0.85.

You see the problem is that I previously used the term Challenge Rating to mean Encounter Level, and vice versa.

...and yes you do need the Silver rule.

If, as you say, though, HD should always be 1/2 the CR/ECL, you can't use (CR total - 1) *0.85 - it has to be a secondary number, which is the result after the Golden Rule is applied. Unless you mean (GR - 1) * 0.85? That would put our friend the ochre jelly at ECL 5, and the belker at ECL 6.

Another example of why everyone should be playing 4th Edition.

Forget about the term Challenge Rating until you get to the end of the equation. The factors listed just give you an abstract number that means nothing. Once you apply the gold and silver rules that abstract number becomes ECL. 2/3rds of the ECL is the Challenge Rating.

You see the problem

 

[dante58701]

Post removed by admin.

 

[Kerrick]

You see the problem is that I previously used the term Challenge Rating to mean Encounter Level, and vice versa.

...and yes you do need the Silver rule.

Oh, I thought the Silver Rule was optional, only if you really wanted to be accurate.

Forget about the term Challenge Rating until you get to the end of the equation. The factors listed just give you an abstract number that means nothing. Once you apply the gold and silver rules that abstract number becomes ECL. 2/3rds of the ECL is the Challenge Rating.

Okay, so I'm doing it right (mostly). I don't need to multiply the Silver Rule number by 0.85 to get the ECL - I've already got it. Good deal.

Ranting stuff

Dude. Chill out already. I don't like 4E either, but I'm a live and let live kinda guy - WotC isn't going to come burn our books because we prefer to play 3.5. All that senseless ranting will do is get you banned.

 

[wizuriel]

k so I think I got this now. Trying out an arcane ooze (CR 9 from MM3).

hd (mindless ooze) = 6.75

factor = 18.43
huge = 0.7
trait (mindless ooze) = 1.9
climb = 0.2
slow = -0.2
fullattack = 0.7
poison = 0.42
constrictt = 0.35
improved grab = 0.2
immune magic = 10
ability = -0.2
skills = 0.16
spell siphon = 4? (was the general rule for weird stuff that if would take as a feat count as +2)

gold rule = 19.34
silver rule = 15.59
CR = 10.39


edit:
or better yet a lvl 4 human rogue NPC. 25pt buy for abilities.
3.2 for levels
0.5 for equipment
1 for std pt buy
ECL = 4.7
CR = 3

so I have 5 lvl 6 party (EL 15)
so having 2 of those rogues would be an EL 9 making it an easy fight. The Arcane ooze is my calculations are correct would than be a moderate boss fight.


edit2: wait the arcane ooze alone would be CR 10 so EL 14 fight. The arcane ooze and the 2 rogues would be CR 16 so EL 14????

edit 3: nm read further. rogues are too low to do much with the ooze and would be ignored for the EL calculation. would they still impact exp and treasure?

 

[wizuriel]

edit: sry double post