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Christian Magic
- Thread starter fusangite
- Start date
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
Well an Arcane/Divine split in the DnD sense would be silly, but in the medieval imagination I don't really detect a sense that the miraculous ends or even begins with the church. The church is a huge part of it, but the miraculous really seems to be just one more thing in the grand scheme of things.
Hmm, aspects of it I would put in:
There are things that are really really good at magic, humans aren't among them. Not to say they don't have great authority and knowledge and can't get at it that way, but in most ways it might be easier to ask some other sort of creature to do it for you than to try and do it yourself.
Most human magic would thus focus on authority, also creating things that can do magic, or finding things that were inherently magical.
Explicitly Christian magic would fall into the following categories:
Counter-magic/protection - very very reliable at actually countering, not always totally great at detecting or preventing secondary effects. The witches curse doesn't affect you, but you also can't find the enemy magic user and it might take a small child instead.
Healing - very effective but unpredictable in that it often carries with it unintended effects like revealing past crimes of the healed or granting unusual powers. "Wow! I have new leg that looks and acts utterly unlike my old leg or the other leg I've always had!"
Authority - might be the most effective of the various forms of magic in this domain, with the unusual limitation that the use of this authority would be limited to Christian means under many circumstances. Sure you can rebuke the demon and stop him from doing just about anything, but unless you have the seal of Solomon there's not a whole lot else you can do with it. Further, you might survive the raid by the scourge of God, but he's called that for a reason.
Conversion - see above, but not actually so much limited by what you can do with it - there are a surprising number of stories where St.s do things like convert dragons only to find that God doesn't want them around - as that there are a limited number of circumstances in which to convert, conversion doesn't always solve your problems - check out the record on inter-church poisonings, and the process is very very very arduous. To my mind this would be the coolest part of Christian magic, more or less like coincedental magic in Mage where you have to carefully construct subtle but very very very far reaching effects. This covers both the evil noble who becomes repentant scenario, and the evil place that is suddenly redeemed into something really cool.
Transformation/Creation - this is likely to be the meat and drink, literally, of highly proficient Christian wonder workers. The issue is that it's going to be really indirect and mostly very altruistic. The, "Oh Thank-you Father, we would never have found that pot of gold under the chimney without your wisdom" scenario.
Cursing - probably pretty good, but, in general, when Christian's curse they do so in the context of tremendous sacrafice or actually loosing. There should be some great counter-attack mechanics here.
Wonder - the Christian version of illusion, where you don't actually create comprehensible images of false things so much as incomprehensible visions of true things. Rather than creating an image of a fearsome troll you instill an image of your opponents' fear itself into their heads. This is likely to be a lot of the magic as well.
Knowledge - Christian magic should not do divination at all save for granted visions, but it should be very good at letting you figure out or deduce things, particularly in defensive situations. Christian adventure mystics are incredibly good at intuition and knowing things. Hermits who have knowledge that has otherwise passed beyond reckoning on the one hand and the Bishop who shows people the way out on the other.
Blessings - Pretty good, though a lot of the benefit should depend on the people being blessed. Both the army that suddenly has Saint's fighting for them and the mystic who ends up having to reprimand those who took the mission with impure motive.
That's the narrative bits that should be apparent, system wise:
Sacrifice: There should be hefty mechanic for what you can do when you take meaningful in-game setbacks, such as loosing one's life.
Risk: Big bonuses for doing difficult things.
Spiritual duels: One system for this would cover authority and counter-magic, but I could also see it doing almost everything else as well. What it needs to do, however, is give Christian mystics an exciting way of dealing out the peaceful damage. A huge part of the Christian mystic genre are people who end combat through exciting but non-combatitive means. Right now I'm thinking of a bishop who visited England and got the Saxons to turn back by getting a village together to sing verses.
Power Points: I like the idea of a system like Conan's where you have a limited pool of constant power and the ability to beef up that power for a limited period of time through other actions, see Sacrafice above but also through long term and difficult performance, good actions one's own part, and the quality/timing of the spell's use.
Mystical Association: For all that Christian mystics spend much of their time fighting the supernatural, one of their big appeals is that they bring the supernatural out of the woodwork in everyway not just as antagonists. I might do something like allow an Elf in the party, but only on condition that he obey, or appear to obey, the CM's code of honor while present. Or maybe even a weird summoning mechanic.
Congregations: Need very elegant rules for congregations and how they work to expand the scope and effectiveness of simple effects. This could easily work with a power point system.
Behavior: Natch, but also the magic itself should follow a code of behaviour independent of the user. Not the normal DnD 'the deity doesn't want you to have that spell' catch but something more immutable and on a spell by spell/miracle by miracle basis. So that the catch comes on the level of effect not decision. You target the wrong thing mistakenly and rather than simply not go off the power does something totally different and telling like throwing roses rather than pure smiting.
Hmm, aspects of it I would put in:
There are things that are really really good at magic, humans aren't among them. Not to say they don't have great authority and knowledge and can't get at it that way, but in most ways it might be easier to ask some other sort of creature to do it for you than to try and do it yourself.
Most human magic would thus focus on authority, also creating things that can do magic, or finding things that were inherently magical.
Explicitly Christian magic would fall into the following categories:
Counter-magic/protection - very very reliable at actually countering, not always totally great at detecting or preventing secondary effects. The witches curse doesn't affect you, but you also can't find the enemy magic user and it might take a small child instead.
Healing - very effective but unpredictable in that it often carries with it unintended effects like revealing past crimes of the healed or granting unusual powers. "Wow! I have new leg that looks and acts utterly unlike my old leg or the other leg I've always had!"
Authority - might be the most effective of the various forms of magic in this domain, with the unusual limitation that the use of this authority would be limited to Christian means under many circumstances. Sure you can rebuke the demon and stop him from doing just about anything, but unless you have the seal of Solomon there's not a whole lot else you can do with it. Further, you might survive the raid by the scourge of God, but he's called that for a reason.
Conversion - see above, but not actually so much limited by what you can do with it - there are a surprising number of stories where St.s do things like convert dragons only to find that God doesn't want them around - as that there are a limited number of circumstances in which to convert, conversion doesn't always solve your problems - check out the record on inter-church poisonings, and the process is very very very arduous. To my mind this would be the coolest part of Christian magic, more or less like coincedental magic in Mage where you have to carefully construct subtle but very very very far reaching effects. This covers both the evil noble who becomes repentant scenario, and the evil place that is suddenly redeemed into something really cool.
Transformation/Creation - this is likely to be the meat and drink, literally, of highly proficient Christian wonder workers. The issue is that it's going to be really indirect and mostly very altruistic. The, "Oh Thank-you Father, we would never have found that pot of gold under the chimney without your wisdom" scenario.
Cursing - probably pretty good, but, in general, when Christian's curse they do so in the context of tremendous sacrafice or actually loosing. There should be some great counter-attack mechanics here.
Wonder - the Christian version of illusion, where you don't actually create comprehensible images of false things so much as incomprehensible visions of true things. Rather than creating an image of a fearsome troll you instill an image of your opponents' fear itself into their heads. This is likely to be a lot of the magic as well.
Knowledge - Christian magic should not do divination at all save for granted visions, but it should be very good at letting you figure out or deduce things, particularly in defensive situations. Christian adventure mystics are incredibly good at intuition and knowing things. Hermits who have knowledge that has otherwise passed beyond reckoning on the one hand and the Bishop who shows people the way out on the other.
Blessings - Pretty good, though a lot of the benefit should depend on the people being blessed. Both the army that suddenly has Saint's fighting for them and the mystic who ends up having to reprimand those who took the mission with impure motive.
That's the narrative bits that should be apparent, system wise:
Sacrifice: There should be hefty mechanic for what you can do when you take meaningful in-game setbacks, such as loosing one's life.
Risk: Big bonuses for doing difficult things.
Spiritual duels: One system for this would cover authority and counter-magic, but I could also see it doing almost everything else as well. What it needs to do, however, is give Christian mystics an exciting way of dealing out the peaceful damage. A huge part of the Christian mystic genre are people who end combat through exciting but non-combatitive means. Right now I'm thinking of a bishop who visited England and got the Saxons to turn back by getting a village together to sing verses.
Power Points: I like the idea of a system like Conan's where you have a limited pool of constant power and the ability to beef up that power for a limited period of time through other actions, see Sacrafice above but also through long term and difficult performance, good actions one's own part, and the quality/timing of the spell's use.
Mystical Association: For all that Christian mystics spend much of their time fighting the supernatural, one of their big appeals is that they bring the supernatural out of the woodwork in everyway not just as antagonists. I might do something like allow an Elf in the party, but only on condition that he obey, or appear to obey, the CM's code of honor while present. Or maybe even a weird summoning mechanic.
Congregations: Need very elegant rules for congregations and how they work to expand the scope and effectiveness of simple effects. This could easily work with a power point system.
Behavior: Natch, but also the magic itself should follow a code of behaviour independent of the user. Not the normal DnD 'the deity doesn't want you to have that spell' catch but something more immutable and on a spell by spell/miracle by miracle basis. So that the catch comes on the level of effect not decision. You target the wrong thing mistakenly and rather than simply not go off the power does something totally different and telling like throwing roses rather than pure smiting.
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
I would also back the following:
Fading Suns D20
Medieval Player's Manual
Dark Legacies
Fading Suns D20
Medieval Player's Manual
Dark Legacies
MulhorandSage
First Post
I'll also join the chorus of recommendations for the Medieval Players Manual. I ran a Fantasy Europe game a couple years back and really wish that book had been available when it was going.
If you wanted to make magic really "authentic" in the context of medieval christian world-views on the topic, you'd have to scrap the entire D&D spell system, there's nothing there that would work correctly (from a historical perspective).
You would have to have three basic "magic classes": the educated upper-class "high magician" (the alchemists and astrologers), the clerics with christian miracles derived from acts of high moral virtue, and the peasant "wise folk" practicing folk-magic based on old pagan surivalisms.
The next step would depend on whether or not you choose the setting to presume the correctness of the christian medieval world view; if you do, then there are certain rites of magic that were goetic, or damnable; performing these acts would lead to the damnation of your soul (the summoning and binding of demons, or spells to cause love). Whereas other acts were not in themselves damnable, such as astrology. Any magic based on non-christian worship (be it jewish or muslim magic or the pagan survivalisms) would be damnable by default. The effects of practicing damnable magic (other than your soul eventually ending up in hell) is that you would be unable to receive aid from divine sources, no divine healing, no miracles, no intervention from angelic beings.
The other way to look at the setting is to say that those beliefs of damnable or not are either untrue or irrelevant, of course. In that case, you could interpret that all of these forms of magic depend on the "science" of ritual.. even the christian monk who can achieve apparent miracles by near-constant prayer, chastity, and self-flagellation is not actually being given power by god, just by the discipline of his "yoga".
Nisarg
You would have to have three basic "magic classes": the educated upper-class "high magician" (the alchemists and astrologers), the clerics with christian miracles derived from acts of high moral virtue, and the peasant "wise folk" practicing folk-magic based on old pagan surivalisms.
The next step would depend on whether or not you choose the setting to presume the correctness of the christian medieval world view; if you do, then there are certain rites of magic that were goetic, or damnable; performing these acts would lead to the damnation of your soul (the summoning and binding of demons, or spells to cause love). Whereas other acts were not in themselves damnable, such as astrology. Any magic based on non-christian worship (be it jewish or muslim magic or the pagan survivalisms) would be damnable by default. The effects of practicing damnable magic (other than your soul eventually ending up in hell) is that you would be unable to receive aid from divine sources, no divine healing, no miracles, no intervention from angelic beings.
The other way to look at the setting is to say that those beliefs of damnable or not are either untrue or irrelevant, of course. In that case, you could interpret that all of these forms of magic depend on the "science" of ritual.. even the christian monk who can achieve apparent miracles by near-constant prayer, chastity, and self-flagellation is not actually being given power by god, just by the discipline of his "yoga".
Nisarg
fanboy2000
Adventurer
This isn't quite what your looking for, but I'm thowing it out anyways. Just in case someone wants to try it.
First, I'd make God divine rank 21, putting him in the realm of those who are omnipotent, and don't grant spells.
I'd make Saints divine rank 0, allowing them to draw on god given divine power to preform miracles and, (possibly, if they we go with dr 1) grant spells.
I wouldn't actually have priests cast spells.
First, I'd make God divine rank 21, putting him in the realm of those who are omnipotent, and don't grant spells.
I'd make Saints divine rank 0, allowing them to draw on god given divine power to preform miracles and, (possibly, if they we go with dr 1) grant spells.
I wouldn't actually have priests cast spells.
TheAuldGrump
First Post
Breaking down the Domains by the saints might be an idea as well. St. Christopher for the Travel domain, St Albertus Magnus (from Orthodox Christianity) for Magic, just to give possible examples.
The Auld Grump, and a 7th(?) recommendation for Medieval Handbook. I rather think that the recommendation for Mythic Europe was also referring to this, as it is by David Chart, who also develops the Ars Magica Mythic Europ... Or it may have been a cross RPG suggestion - it is a very good book.
The Auld Grump, and a 7th(?) recommendation for Medieval Handbook. I rather think that the recommendation for Mythic Europe was also referring to this, as it is by David Chart, who also develops the Ars Magica Mythic Europ... Or it may have been a cross RPG suggestion - it is a very good book.
Perun
Mushroom
If I were preparing such a campaign, I'd probably modify the warlock base class (from Complete Arcane).
In case you haven't seen it, it's basically a class that instead of spells gains a couple of spell like abilities it can use at will (no 'times per day' limitation). As a hindrance, it's limited to 12 such abilities (called invocations) by 20th-level (additional invocations can be acquired by spending feats). Invocations are grouped in 4 groups, based on their relative power: Least, Lesser, Greater, and Dark.
Another thing you might want to look into are the invocation rules in the Unearthed Arcana. Those are basically ritual "spells" that can be cast by anyone. I'm not certain if some of them can be used by a single character, or whether they require more than one participant in the rituals.
Also, it might be worth looking into d20 Modern game. They have rules for a low-magic campaigns, IIRC, and AFAIK, there's a d20 Past accessory available (I think I saw it in the WotC catalogue).
And finally, I also recommend Expeditious Retreat's books. I only have Magical Mediaeval Society: Western Europe, and it's a great book.
In case you haven't seen it, it's basically a class that instead of spells gains a couple of spell like abilities it can use at will (no 'times per day' limitation). As a hindrance, it's limited to 12 such abilities (called invocations) by 20th-level (additional invocations can be acquired by spending feats). Invocations are grouped in 4 groups, based on their relative power: Least, Lesser, Greater, and Dark.
Another thing you might want to look into are the invocation rules in the Unearthed Arcana. Those are basically ritual "spells" that can be cast by anyone. I'm not certain if some of them can be used by a single character, or whether they require more than one participant in the rituals.
Also, it might be worth looking into d20 Modern game. They have rules for a low-magic campaigns, IIRC, and AFAIK, there's a d20 Past accessory available (I think I saw it in the WotC catalogue).
And finally, I also recommend Expeditious Retreat's books. I only have Magical Mediaeval Society: Western Europe, and it's a great book.
1st- not everyone was Roman Catholic even then...you still had strong enclaves of pagan religion out there.
How you do this in general depends on what Biblical "Magic" you wish to model.
You may find it useful to look at the Arcana Unearthed and Diamond Throne from Malhavoc press. There's a PrCl that channels powers from otherplanar beings.
You may wish to use a system in which Christian Clerics have spell resistance to Pagan spells, or use a counterspelling model.
How you do this in general depends on what Biblical "Magic" you wish to model.
You may find it useful to look at the Arcana Unearthed and Diamond Throne from Malhavoc press. There's a PrCl that channels powers from otherplanar beings.
You may wish to use a system in which Christian Clerics have spell resistance to Pagan spells, or use a counterspelling model.
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