City of the Spider Queen (mini-campaign)
Malachei
First Post
HM, I sorry, but I am not happy with how the game is going. I've built a character with an extensive background, but the whole adventure feels more like a random encounter. Actually, a somewhat boring random encounter, because our party is unbalanced, and our most powerful PC is able to take the enemy on his own. And apart from some in-party interaction in the beginning, there is little beyond mechanical combat-crunch-posts (of course, this is our responsibility as players, as well). I guess all of us can read a few handbooks and build an ueber combattant, but I'm actually here for storytelling aspects of the game, and I'm too fond of Aden as a character to spend him in a game that appears to have a lot of rollplaying, instead of roleplaying.
HolyMan
Thy wounds are healed!
Sorry to hear it but you may have something there. The game is combat heavy for sure. And the RP part is mostly with drow - which would not be good for Aden with his background - as you find out what is going on.
If you think Vertexx69's character is to powerful remember that a) everyone of the attacks hit that one time(which is rare), and b) Leaping is not much use indoors.
HM
If you think Vertexx69's character is to powerful remember that a) everyone of the attacks hit that one time(which is rare), and b) Leaping is not much use indoors.
HM
perrinmiller
Adventurer
Actually this issue goes back to before the holidays and had nothing to do with posting frequency per se.
I too was not real excited about an appearance of unbalance, particularly since I felt my build concept got nerfed. When I pitched it, I thought I would get some cooperation on the design or the gear. But that picture pretty much shackled me into something that is not what I would have done in a leveling up process.
So even after compromising my plans, the problem is worsen by the gear assigned. I didn't want the tower shield, unenchanted breastplate armor and a scimitar as my primary weapon. First chance my character would have had was to commission enchanted mithral platemail and get rid of that breastplate.
Just looking at the mechanics of the build, my character sucks as a tank. he is too slow to get to or stay in the front line and his secondary weapons all suck since I had wasn't allowed any money for even masterwork quality gear to be flexible. And with an AC of only 24, he isn't too excited about getting to the front-line to begin with.
So before we even started into the adventure I was wishing I had been allowed to play my sorceress idea instead. So I can freely admit I was jealous of Vertexx69's freedom to build what he wanted. But at this point it doesn't bother me as much as just general dissatification with my own character build now that I have seen how the party fights in practice.
As for RP, this adventure is a dungeon crawl right now. So, it is what it is.
I too was not real excited about an appearance of unbalance, particularly since I felt my build concept got nerfed. When I pitched it, I thought I would get some cooperation on the design or the gear. But that picture pretty much shackled me into something that is not what I would have done in a leveling up process.
So even after compromising my plans, the problem is worsen by the gear assigned. I didn't want the tower shield, unenchanted breastplate armor and a scimitar as my primary weapon. First chance my character would have had was to commission enchanted mithral platemail and get rid of that breastplate.
Just looking at the mechanics of the build, my character sucks as a tank. he is too slow to get to or stay in the front line and his secondary weapons all suck since I had wasn't allowed any money for even masterwork quality gear to be flexible. And with an AC of only 24, he isn't too excited about getting to the front-line to begin with.
So before we even started into the adventure I was wishing I had been allowed to play my sorceress idea instead. So I can freely admit I was jealous of Vertexx69's freedom to build what he wanted. But at this point it doesn't bother me as much as just general dissatification with my own character build now that I have seen how the party fights in practice.
As for RP, this adventure is a dungeon crawl right now. So, it is what it is.
Malachei
First Post
@ perrinmiller: I don't think that if HM would have allowed your items you'd be any happier, because then you'd not have an excuse left for paling against the dino stampede. 
Also, IMO, there can be wonderful roleplay even in a dungeon crawl. One of the decisions a group of players takes is where to focus. If the posts would focus on the party, instead of the dungeon rooms and the combat mechanics, the whole game feel would be entirely different. In the "come on, let's get rolling" atmosphere this game had (probably a sense of urgency, perhaps because of the long campaign), roleplaying efforts quickly vanished.
@ HM: IMO, one of the responsibilities as a DM is party balance. There might be the rare altruist, who does not care, but most players want a fair share of the action. I'm not sure, but I guess you did not have a close look at the submitted characters in comparison. Even for Aden, who, as a caster, does not compete directly with the dinos' damage, this is an issue (why cast a spell or try a sneak attack at all?) -- but for Dargun and Morrolan, it means the dinos take their role, and they feel pretty useless.
As I said, this does not require much creativity. All of us can google "fighter's handbook", have a look at the CO boards and create a decent charger build in short time -- having built the most powerful character in a party is nothing to be proud of. But both as a player and a DM, I prefer games that do not require or even reward an "arms race".
@ Vertexx69: What's actually a surprise to me, is that you don't seem to have any issue at all with the fact that your build makes the other front-line fighters mere bystanders.
Also, IMO, there can be wonderful roleplay even in a dungeon crawl. One of the decisions a group of players takes is where to focus. If the posts would focus on the party, instead of the dungeon rooms and the combat mechanics, the whole game feel would be entirely different. In the "come on, let's get rolling" atmosphere this game had (probably a sense of urgency, perhaps because of the long campaign), roleplaying efforts quickly vanished.
@ HM: IMO, one of the responsibilities as a DM is party balance. There might be the rare altruist, who does not care, but most players want a fair share of the action. I'm not sure, but I guess you did not have a close look at the submitted characters in comparison. Even for Aden, who, as a caster, does not compete directly with the dinos' damage, this is an issue (why cast a spell or try a sneak attack at all?) -- but for Dargun and Morrolan, it means the dinos take their role, and they feel pretty useless.
As I said, this does not require much creativity. All of us can google "fighter's handbook", have a look at the CO boards and create a decent charger build in short time -- having built the most powerful character in a party is nothing to be proud of. But both as a player and a DM, I prefer games that do not require or even reward an "arms race".
@ Vertexx69: What's actually a surprise to me, is that you don't seem to have any issue at all with the fact that your build makes the other front-line fighters mere bystanders.
This is the 1st time I've ever played a druid (in 15 years of D&D), and with a beguiler, an arcivist and a duskblade I figured we needed some real firepower against encounters that we couldn't talk our way out of.
I chose my build expecting large scale battles, in huge underground caverns, against armies of monstrous spiders and drow, instead of a trickle of critters in cramped passages. But its only the 2nd encounter, a mere couple hundred yards into the underdark. HM was talking about being 30-40 miles underground so I think there will be plenty of opportunities for all kinds of fun to be had by everyone. And the picture looked to me like everyone else can cast spells and/or attack from range.
I've been in many mid lvl games where I was left in the dust by focused casters who could do 10X the things I could, reducing my fighter to a moving wall-o-meat to keep them from dying from a single hit. Being competitive damage wise was a concern of mine, and the optimization is to offset my dice rolling which you will soon find out is truly horrid. So if you can get passed the shock of a good round of combat, I'm sure everyone can get along just fine.
I chose my build expecting large scale battles, in huge underground caverns, against armies of monstrous spiders and drow, instead of a trickle of critters in cramped passages. But its only the 2nd encounter, a mere couple hundred yards into the underdark. HM was talking about being 30-40 miles underground so I think there will be plenty of opportunities for all kinds of fun to be had by everyone. And the picture looked to me like everyone else can cast spells and/or attack from range.
I've been in many mid lvl games where I was left in the dust by focused casters who could do 10X the things I could, reducing my fighter to a moving wall-o-meat to keep them from dying from a single hit. Being competitive damage wise was a concern of mine, and the optimization is to offset my dice rolling which you will soon find out is truly horrid. So if you can get passed the shock of a good round of combat, I'm sure everyone can get along just fine.
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HolyMan
Thy wounds are healed!
I am almost glad Vertexx69's character can dish out some punishment. It will help vs. big monsters and not be as effect vs multiply combatants, or while hanging from a cliff. So that's why I'm not to worried everyone will get there share in this adventure. And the filler combats we will get through faster.
When jkason said that perhaps making a beguiler for a dungeon delve was ill thought out I didn't worry. I know those skills will be handy.
btw does Talhia speak giant??
HM
When jkason said that perhaps making a beguiler for a dungeon delve was ill thought out I didn't worry. I know those skills will be handy.
btw does Talhia speak giant??
HM
perrinmiller
Adventurer
[MENTION=38657]Malachei[/MENTION]; No, I have really thought about this over the holiday slow-down. I am not jealous of the fleshrakers themselves. I was (not anymore) jealous of the fact Vertexx69 was allowed the freedom to make such a build while I had to compromise my intentions and didn't get the any of the gear I requested nor enough cash to purchase secondary masterwork items so I didn't have stick with that big shield and scimitar.
Until I saw the full potential of the fleshraker's damage I had no idea. I was just looking at their AC, HP and DR and realized my melee guy sucks in comparison for the tanking roll. That is my problem since I tried to fill that role in the party and it was a mistake. At 10th level, he just feels too fragile.
Now that is mostly my fault, I joined the game with the desire to play a Duskblade/Dragon Disciple. It looked good on paper. But melee fighters in general are all about their gear, that is what makes or breaks a fighter and their feats are designed to use it. Pretty much every other class is more focused on their special abilities. And Duskblades are really just fighters that trade feats for some spells to augment their martial prowess instead. And fighter archtypes generally go two ways, tanks or mobility. Medium armor is bad for either concept, period. Duskblades work best with two handed reach weapons, so you can see why those three pieces of gear (breastplate, heavy shield, and scimitar) really don't fit.
But if we had been adventuring for awhile before starting this current dungeon, my character would have acquired gear to complement his fighting style or developed a fighting style around his powerful magical items. Instead, what I have is a substandard melee fighter and I cannot get excited about playing him in combat. And that has nothing to do with the DMing nor Vertexx69's character.
So, yes changing the gear would make a huge difference to me. Also, I have no problem playing a more support melee combatant that can compliment and work with our two dinos. I actually have an 8th level Cleric/Fighter/Stormlord build that was in a game that closed down a few months ago. But he is a fighter type too and would need different gear than what Morrolan currently has.
@HM; I think the Char Gen idea was a novel one and it encouraged a way to keep down powergaming. And I suspected a few weeks ago that when you look at our total party's combat power, we need the fleshraker's to survive. But when you look at that picture, those adventurers actually look like a bunch of pikers. Not a single suit of platemail armor and not one of them looks like an experienced adventurer in their outfitting.
Perhaps others are not so unhappy about their characters, but that is probably because their concepts and their items are not as critical to their roles in the party.
I suppose after thinking about it, if have to stick with those three items, it would be much better to build a character that could actually use them effectively, though it would be sad to take Fafnir out of the picture.
Since player interaction is pretty much non-existent, the tactical aspects of the game would be my other enjoyment. One or the other would hold my interest, but right now I have satisfaction from neither and that is my biggest problem with this game. If it weren't for the fact that I committed to do the mapping, I would probably exit stage left alongside Malachei. Scratch that, I would have left 2-3 months ago actually, since I was not happy about that Swashbuckler game getting dropped.
So we are down one player, haven't heard from Renard's player in I don't know how long, we going to do anything about it? Or are we just going to continue on as is?
Until I saw the full potential of the fleshraker's damage I had no idea. I was just looking at their AC, HP and DR and realized my melee guy sucks in comparison for the tanking roll. That is my problem since I tried to fill that role in the party and it was a mistake. At 10th level, he just feels too fragile.
Now that is mostly my fault, I joined the game with the desire to play a Duskblade/Dragon Disciple. It looked good on paper. But melee fighters in general are all about their gear, that is what makes or breaks a fighter and their feats are designed to use it. Pretty much every other class is more focused on their special abilities. And Duskblades are really just fighters that trade feats for some spells to augment their martial prowess instead. And fighter archtypes generally go two ways, tanks or mobility. Medium armor is bad for either concept, period. Duskblades work best with two handed reach weapons, so you can see why those three pieces of gear (breastplate, heavy shield, and scimitar) really don't fit.
But if we had been adventuring for awhile before starting this current dungeon, my character would have acquired gear to complement his fighting style or developed a fighting style around his powerful magical items. Instead, what I have is a substandard melee fighter and I cannot get excited about playing him in combat. And that has nothing to do with the DMing nor Vertexx69's character.
So, yes changing the gear would make a huge difference to me. Also, I have no problem playing a more support melee combatant that can compliment and work with our two dinos. I actually have an 8th level Cleric/Fighter/Stormlord build that was in a game that closed down a few months ago. But he is a fighter type too and would need different gear than what Morrolan currently has.
@HM; I think the Char Gen idea was a novel one and it encouraged a way to keep down powergaming.
And I suspected a few weeks ago that when you look at our total party's combat power, we need the fleshraker's to survive. But when you look at that picture, those adventurers actually look like a bunch of pikers. Not a single suit of platemail armor and not one of them looks like an experienced adventurer in their outfitting.Perhaps others are not so unhappy about their characters, but that is probably because their concepts and their items are not as critical to their roles in the party.
I suppose after thinking about it, if have to stick with those three items, it would be much better to build a character that could actually use them effectively, though it would be sad to take Fafnir out of the picture.
Since player interaction is pretty much non-existent, the tactical aspects of the game would be my other enjoyment. One or the other would hold my interest, but right now I have satisfaction from neither and that is my biggest problem with this game. If it weren't for the fact that I committed to do the mapping, I would probably exit stage left alongside Malachei. Scratch that, I would have left 2-3 months ago actually, since I was not happy about that Swashbuckler game getting dropped.
So we are down one player, haven't heard from Renard's player in I don't know how long, we going to do anything about it? Or are we just going to continue on as is?
HolyMan
Thy wounds are healed!
I decided to run a game for all of you to play. You in turn as a group should have decided on party roles and such. I was excited to run this game as it adds dungeon delving with some RPing with monstrous NPC's on top of a mystery.
It may not be right for pbp though. Around the table if we played one session a week for four hours each you would be farther along than you are. Past all the hack and slash and getting into the other aspects.
As players you should accept any rulings I make (like equipment) and roll with them. As the DM I should reward the fact that you have played along and in the future make changes to suit you. (i.e. finding the gear you actually wanted - but don't think you would have found it in the fourth room of a mega dungeon). I chose a new way to do things because just giving players X amount of gp leads to them purchasing exactly the same things there other 4 or 5 characters have in other games. Plus they usually don't have anything related to the adventure.
The shield is my best example. First it was in the picture so of course you were going to get one, and should have figured it into your character via feats or a fighting style. Second there is no cleric in the group so I gave it the command undead ability to help later (much later - like the end) in the adventure. But like I said in pbp that would have been a long long time, so perhaps not grand.
Vertexx69's charatcer got approved for the great concept write up. The character wasn't in the picture but the story was a good one so I let the character join. There was no picture and I was busy so when I was asked to let the player purchase magical items I agreed. The stipulation was that they would get their regular starting wealth only (while everyone else was way above) as I figured that would be fair.
You need not keep mapping for this game btw. The maps are for your benefit not mine. I would use the way I do maps just fine, it was you that wished for better ones. And if I were mapping we would have skipped this filler encounter that has absolutely nothing to do with the adventure.
So where do we go from here. No clue I am running the game and it is up for you all as a group to decide if you wish to continue as is or if it would be better for a change.
Ball's in the groups court I will continue to run the game for those who wish to play. But please don't keep things the same if you aren't having fun, that isn't what I want.
Note: I am sorry about the Swashbuckler game if it were here at ENWorld I would have been able to keep it going. Just not enough time to be site jumping.
HM
It may not be right for pbp though. Around the table if we played one session a week for four hours each you would be farther along than you are. Past all the hack and slash and getting into the other aspects.
As players you should accept any rulings I make (like equipment) and roll with them. As the DM I should reward the fact that you have played along and in the future make changes to suit you. (i.e. finding the gear you actually wanted - but don't think you would have found it in the fourth room of a mega dungeon). I chose a new way to do things because just giving players X amount of gp leads to them purchasing exactly the same things there other 4 or 5 characters have in other games. Plus they usually don't have anything related to the adventure.
The shield is my best example. First it was in the picture so of course you were going to get one, and should have figured it into your character via feats or a fighting style. Second there is no cleric in the group so I gave it the command undead ability to help later (much later - like the end) in the adventure. But like I said in pbp that would have been a long long time, so perhaps not grand.
Vertexx69's charatcer got approved for the great concept write up. The character wasn't in the picture but the story was a good one so I let the character join. There was no picture and I was busy so when I was asked to let the player purchase magical items I agreed. The stipulation was that they would get their regular starting wealth only (while everyone else was way above) as I figured that would be fair.
You need not keep mapping for this game btw. The maps are for your benefit not mine. I would use the way I do maps just fine, it was you that wished for better ones. And if I were mapping we would have skipped this filler encounter that has absolutely nothing to do with the adventure.
So where do we go from here. No clue I am running the game and it is up for you all as a group to decide if you wish to continue as is or if it would be better for a change.
Ball's in the groups court I will continue to run the game for those who wish to play. But please don't keep things the same if you aren't having fun, that isn't what I want.
Note: I am sorry about the Swashbuckler game if it were here at ENWorld I would have been able to keep it going. Just not enough time to be site jumping.
HM
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