Cleric of Gruumsh in a party with an Elf

[Warpiglet]

If you don't want an issue between the halfork and elf, don't purposefully do dream sequences and the like that are coaxing the halfork to have issues with the elf.

Is it so important that you treat your world "internally consistent" in your own mind that you force the two PCs into conflict just because you can't see them working together? In my opinion, at some point you need to just let the players do what the players want to do and slightly bend your rigid thoughts on how things "should be".

Let the players figure out whether an elf and halfork can work together. They'll come into conflict soon enough without you pushing them.

You know, I think this is good advice. It could be that being orcish to the noble is being brave and savage in combat. Perhaps they are not as focused on taking elf scalps. why force it?

In 3e they had gruumsh as a possible deity for at least neutral characters. at that time it started looking like the lore suggested a cleric of gruumsh might find common ground in a party.

if you insist priests of gruumsh are murderous psychopaths, perhaps allowing them in the party should be reconsidered.

maybe gruumsh is different in your world.

insisting they are murderous psychos AND allowing them in the party will not end well.

 

[Oofta]

You know, I think this is good advice. It could be that being orcish to the noble is being brave and savage in combat. Perhaps they are not as focused on taking elf scalps. why force it?

In 3e they had gruumsh as a possible deity for at least neutral characters. at that time it started looking like the lore suggested a cleric of gruumsh might find common ground in a party.

if you insist priests of gruumsh are murderous psychopaths, perhaps allowing them in the party should be reconsidered.

maybe gruumsh is different in your world.

insisting they are murderous psychos AND allowing them in the party will not end well.

I may be biased because I run home campaign in a world that I've built and run in over decades. In some ways that's been a big benefit - I have a ton of back story and lore that I can always dip into whether the players realize it or not.

However, it does mean that my world doesn't morph to suit the players (although campaigns certainly do). That may make me an inflexible SOB, but I view it as having a consistent world. As much as I may wish that chocolate ice cream was a health food, I accept that it is not and the consequences of my actions if I eat it.

In the same way, Gruumsh is an evil god in my world. A cleric ignoring 2/3 of a god's portfolio and only focusing on the 1/3 that enables the other 2/3 would not fly. There may be differences in implementation of the portfolio of a deity, but not ignoring entire aspects of a god. It would be like a McDonald's server only selling salads and refusing to fill any other order. Technically they are just trying to serve the customers by providing the healthiest alternative. However, they are not doing what their employer wants and will need to find a different job.

So maybe this is a one-shot, brand new campaign world. Maybe the DM and the players don't have strong opinions and the portfolio that an individual cleric follows can get away with only serving salad not really being evil. But won't there still be basic conflict? If the party has to confront an orcish raiding party, which side does the cleric support?

I learned a long time ago (when a player wanted to be a half-dragon half-vampire 7 foot tall albino elf) that sometimes in order to have a consistent, believable world I have to set limitations. In order to have a cohesive group, I have to occasionally say "no" to a concept. A cleric of Gruumsh is an example of where I would draw the line.

 

[Enkhidu]

I think there’s a two step process here. I would do these in order.

1. Talk to the players together, either in person or in an email thread. Find out if they want to wrangle through these problems in play without your help, or if they would like some support to push things along. If you start with making sure everyone sees the same problems (and accept that they might not) you’ll have a good start to fixing them.

2. If they want help, then use the historical assumptions Tony V mentioned above for 1e and 2e and assume that everything is “status quo” until the cleric gets 3rd level spells. Then Old One Eye takes notice and starts pushing the PC to do the “right” things - maybe the PC gets visits from other orky clerics, maybe the PC begins to see the the elf as a monster out of one eye, or something equally mild. If the PC rejects the new signs (at least two or three, to make sure its blatant) then give the cleric a different spell prep list one day, hand picked by Gruumsh as a last ditch effort. If the PC caves to the pressure, then the whole thing comes to a head. If the PC rebels, then everything goes back to normal (no signs, no interference, spells are back to player picks. The only things my that’s different? One of Gruumsh’s many godly enemies is the one providing the power now.



Number 2 is just one approach (and a bit heavy handed at that). The real solution will likely present itself in step 1.

 

[Warpiglet]

I may be biased because I run home campaign in a world that I've built and run in over decades. In some ways that's been a big benefit - I have a ton of back story and lore that I can always dip into whether the players realize it or not.

However, it does mean that my world doesn't morph to suit the players (although campaigns certainly do). That may make me an inflexible SOB, but I view it as having a consistent world. As much as I may wish that chocolate ice cream was a health food, I accept that it is not and the consequences of my actions if I eat it.

In the same way, Gruumsh is an evil god in my world. A cleric ignoring 2/3 of a god's portfolio and only focusing on the 1/3 that enables the other 2/3 would not fly. There may be differences in implementation of the portfolio of a deity, but not ignoring entire aspects of a god. It would be like a McDonald's server only selling salads and refusing to fill any other order. Technically they are just trying to serve the customers by providing the healthiest alternative. However, they are not doing what their employer wants and will need to find a different job.

So maybe this is a one-shot, brand new campaign world. Maybe the DM and the players don't have strong opinions and the portfolio that an individual cleric follows can get away with only serving salad not really being evil. But won't there still be basic conflict? If the party has to confront an orcish raiding party, which side does the cleric support?

I learned a long time ago (when a player wanted to be a half-dragon half-vampire 7 foot tall albino elf) that sometimes in order to have a consistent, believable world I have to set limitations. In order to have a cohesive group, I have to occasionally say "no" to a concept. A cleric of Gruumsh is an example of where I would draw the line.

What I propose is setting limits to create some sense of consistency. I personally don't want a bunch of gruumsh worshippers being no different than say a pelor cleric either. No surface drow without sunlight problems in my world, either!

Thus, I would not have allowed the player to make this selection with an elf in the party in the first place.

But the train has left the station...and I surely would not foster PvP conflict. The DM has to come up with something other than "Its just the way the world is." A discussion with the players is likely going to have to take place...

 

[AmerginLiath]

The important point that you made is that the character is very orc but not necessarily evil. That means that you can play the relationship as one of intense competition — showing that the orcish way is better, that the elven way is weak — without crossing the line into violence. Think of it as the classic elf/dwarf argument dialed up to eleven (or, per the Star Trek references made, the arguments between Klingons and Vulcans who are nevertheless allies). If the two of you agree out-of-game to try to one-up each other and trade the occasional barb (there’s a long way between genocidal war and the uncouth/pansy argument), you can get a memorable ‘relationship’ out of allies who are working together but can’t agree (or even one who has a different and more tragic sense of how the two might get along than the other). It need not result in PvP.

 

[Li Shenron]

I have a situation brewing and wanted to get some feedback.

In a game I am running right now one of my players is playing a Half-Orc Noble Cleric of Gruumsh. Her backstory is that he was adopted by the fantasy version of Bradgelina and is rebelling against them. She is basically going with the idea that her character is double-downing on his Orcish heritage as part of the rebellion (and of course becoming an adventurer). During the concept stage I warned her that Gruumsh is an evil god (her character is not evil) and this may not be a good idea, but she went with it. The other party members right now are x2 Humans, a Halfling, and an Elf.

The Cleric has just hit level 3, so 2nd level spells are available. I want to treat this as his connection with Gruumsh is deepening. I've already started having the "Whispers of Gruumsh" be a thing, specifically having thoughts of having the Elf's ears as a necklace. I am also *considering* having potential spell failures if benefitial spells are targeting the Elf. I also am thinking that a dream sequence of the Cleric being before Gruumsh in his "court" in a nightmarish scene is something that should play out soon.

From a DM standpoint, I don't want to tell a player how to play their character. But at the same time I can't see a Cleric of Gruumsh doing well with an Elf in the party.

What are some of your thoughts on this situation?

There are no answers to your questions. While it's true that in many settings there is a mutual hatred between orcs and elves (and their respective patron deities), in your fantasy world things can go differently.

I usually myself downplay (or outright ignore) the "racial" aspects of deities. For instance, I depict Moradin as the "god of mountains", and then maybe say that dwarves pick Moradin as their favoured deity, not the other way around.

So it's up to you to decide if "killing all elves" is a tenet of Gruumsh's worshipers, or not at all. By the rules, even the Elf character could be a Gruumsh's worshipers by the way.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

I appreciate the varied responses and different perspectives.

After some consideration I think I am just going to let it slide for the time being. I'm going to keep having NPC's eyeball his holy symbol curiously, and maybe ask the player if her character is performing any rituals to Gruumsh. I don't think the player of the Elf character honestly cares (he's not much of a roleplayer as far as I can tell), so I don't see a PvP situation occurring without forcing it. Also I think the Half-Orc player just wanted to be a War Cleric and that's why she went with Gruumsh. Regardless, I don't see it being a big issue unless I make it one, and I think I am just going to bite my tongue for a bit. Maybe in a few more levels I'll readdress it...or just kill the character. >: )

(last bit is a joke)

 

[Quartz]

I have a situation brewing and wanted to get some feedback.

There was a Story Hour about a LN cleric of Hextor which worked quite well.

 

[Enkhidu]

I appreciate the varied responses and different perspectives.

After some consideration I think I am just going to let it slide for the time being. I'm going to keep having NPC's eyeball his holy symbol curiously, and maybe ask the player if her character is performing any rituals to Gruumsh. I don't think the player of the Elf character honestly cares (he's not much of a roleplayer as far as I can tell), so I don't see a PvP situation occurring without forcing it. Also I think the Half-Orc player just wanted to be a War Cleric and that's why she went with Gruumsh. Regardless, I don't see it being a big issue unless I make it one, and I think I am just going to bite my tongue for a bit. Maybe in a few more levels I'll readdress it...or just kill the character. >: )

(last bit is a joke)

If nothing else, you can always use the situation as food for thought for your next Session 0.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Also I think the Half-Orc player just wanted to be a War Cleric and that's why she went with Gruumsh.)

Not a fan of Tempus then?