D&D 5E Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part XV: The FINAL ROUND)

[Undrave]

You know the drill folks! Here we are for some good old discussions on the subject of the current survivor thread!

With 50 points, I wonder if we can make it to Christmas?

D&D 5E - 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part XV: The FINAL ROUND)

It's time! Over the past few weeks, we have been selecting the Champions to represent each core class in the Final Round, and we have at last arrived. So without further adue, Bring forth the list of Champions! THE HALL OF HEROES Artificers: Battle Smith Barbarians: Path of the Totem Warrior...

www.enworld.org

 

[Ancalagon]

So someone - perhaps in jest - said that the battlemaster was the subclass for people who don't like fighters. I am... baffled? But perhaps there is logic to that opinion...

I'm also wondering how much the subclass vs the base class will matter.

 

[Undrave]

So someone - perhaps in jest - said that the battlemaster was the subclass for people who don't like fighters. I am... baffled? But perhaps there is logic to that opinion...

I'm also wondering how much the subclass vs the base class will matter.

I think it's the subclass for people who don't like the Champion.

Nuance.

 

[Scribe]

Not a single option here is my favourite subclass.

Sadness abounds.

 

[see]

So someone - perhaps in jest - said that the battlemaster was the subclass for people who don't like fighters. I am... baffled? But perhaps there is logic to that opinion...

Almost precisely half in jest.

One meaning of "fighter" would be "the narrative role of someone who is an expert at physical combat". But another meaning would be "the mechanical play experience of the class as expressed in the core rules of most editions of the game."

With core OD&D, AD&D 1st, AD&D 2nd, B/X, BECMI, 3rd, and 3.5, the only "internal" resource a fighter had to manage was his hit points, which he could not directly choose to expend. The 5e fighter never gets quite that pure, but comes close with the Champion. The Battlemaster, built around expendable maneuver dice, is for someone who wants the story role of a traditional D&D fighter (most of the other fighter subclasses move away from the pure martial warrior story), but doesn't like that mechanical play experience of a traditional D&D fighter.

 

[Ancalagon]

Almost precisely half in jest.

One meaning of "fighter" would be "the narrative role of someone who is an expert at physical combat". But another meaning would be "the mechanical play experience of the class as expressed in the core rules of most editions of the game."

With core OD&D, AD&D 1st, AD&D 2nd, B/X, BECMI, 3rd, and 3.5, the only "internal" resource a fighter had to manage was his hit points, which he could not directly choose to expend. The 5e fighter never gets quite that pure, but comes close with the Champion. The Battlemaster, built around expendable maneuver dice, is for someone who wants the story role of a traditional D&D fighter (most of the other fighter subclasses move away from the pure martial warrior story), but doesn't like that mechanical play experience of a traditional D&D fighter.

... almost all non-casters didn't have that "resource". I mean, I see what you are saying, but it's just a more complicated way of saying "I don't like 5e". And a lot of fighter sublcasses have resources, so it's not even specific to battlemasters.

 

[DeviousQuail]

I'm also wondering how much the subclass vs the base class will matter.

For me it matters. If I like the class in general (Druid and Cleric) then I don't factor it in as much but it will probably determine who gets my upvotes the most early on so Tempest>Shepherd. For classes I don't care about one way or the other (Artificer and Warlock) I'll only vote for it if I really like the sublcass. I like the Battle Smith so I'll probably give it some votes but I don't care for Fiend Warlocks so no votes there. If the class sucks* (Sorcerer) or I've never even seen it in play (Mystic) then it will never get my vote.

*my opinion masquerading as definitive truth.

 

[see]

... almost all non-casters didn't have that "resource".

The point I'm making could be rephrased as "from a TSR-era D&D perspective, the Battle Master is a caster in mechanics", sure.

But from a 3.x perspective, that "almost all" is literally untrue. Barbarians had limited-use rage, monks had limited-use ki, and those were half the non-caster core classes (with fighter and rogue rounding out the four).

I mean, I see what you are saying, but it's just a more complicated way of saying "I don't like 5e".

No, it really isn't. I like 5th edition, and Battle Masters, too.

And a lot of fighter sublcasses have resources, so it's not even specific to battlemasters.

Half the subclasses are being explicitly supernaturally obvious that they're not "pure" fighters (Arcane Archer, Echo Knight, Eldritch Knight, Psi Warrior, Rune Knight).

Of the five pure "martial power source" subclasses, there's a spectrum of Champion-Purple Dragon Knight-Samurai-Cavalier-Battle Master, from least use of expendable powers to greatest use. Sure, having those resources isn't specific to the Battle Master, but the Battle Master is strongest expression.

 

[Ancalagon]

The point I'm making could be rephrased as "from a TSR-era D&D perspective, the Battle Master is a caster in mechanics", sure.

But from a 3.x perspective, that "almost all" is literally untrue. Barbarians had limited-use rage, monks had limited-use ki, and those were half the non-caster core classes (with fighter and rogue rounding out the four).


No, it really isn't. I like 5th edition, and Battle Masters, too.


Half the subclasses are being explicitly supernaturally obvious that they're not "pure" fighters (Arcane Archer, Echo Knight, Eldritch Knight, Psi Warrior, Rune Knight).

Of the five pure "martial power source" subclasses, there's a spectrum of Champion-Purple Dragon Knight-Samurai-Cavalier-Battle Master, from least use of expendable powers to greatest use. Sure, having those resources isn't specific to the Battle Master, but the Battle Master is strongest expression.

thank you for explaining, I think I understand where you are coming from now.

I suppose that the "resource free-est" PC would be a rogue now?

edit: the artificer and the mystic being the first ones to go (it's looking that way at least) I could have predicted, but battle master being the third? That I did not see coming.

 

[Tonguez]

Tagging in, the final list is suprising in many aspects, this is going to be an interesting competition so I’m keen to see the debate…