Cosmic Deity power levels in 5E...

[le Redoutable]

... and what about rewarding difficult fights regardless of power level,
like in a fight who lasts for three hours of gameplay, or
a fight who lets pcs dropped to a few hp or
with all spells used up

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Chess435 buddy!

Wow this thread really blew up!

Yes cool discussion.

I'm super excited to see how the divine scaling and tiers work out,

...fantastically.

especially in regards to how Post-20 power progression works, and balancing the bounded accuracy limitations of the D20 system vs. truly expressing the power levels of immortals, sidereals, and beyond.

The immortals stuff is simple, the sidereals are fine, the demiurge tier and above I know what I want to do; the trick is having that slight bit of interactivity between each of the major tiers.

The most powerful of Mortals can battle Immortals, the most powerful Immortals can battle Sidereals, etc.

I also have provisions for Mortals battling Sidereals - but I don't want to explain how right now, its a secret.

In regards to challenge rating as a whole, I've always considered CR's as a whole to be approximately 10-20% higher than what they ought to be, even for sub-epic play. I'm not sure if WotC has really low expectations from the average party, but all too often I've seen "deadly" encounters by RAW get torn to shreds in a couple of rounds, at all levels of play. I'm all for juicing up what should be terrifying fundamental aspects of the universe to have a stat block that properly reflects that, rather than having to constantly homebrew monsters or wildly overestimate on CR just to challenge a party.

Exactly, I think you can juice them up without having to inflate the CR.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey le Redoutable!

... and what about rewarding difficult fights regardless of power level,
like in a fight who lasts for three hours of gameplay, or
a fight who lets pcs dropped to a few hp or
with all spells used up

Not sure if you are talking about...

1. Making difficult fights that are 'rewarding'

...or...

2. Rewarding players for overcoming difficult challenges.

 

[le Redoutable]

Hey le Redoutable!



Not sure if you are talking about...

1. Making difficult fights that are 'rewarding'

...or...

2. Rewarding players for overcoming difficult challenges.

well, if making difficult fights, gotta tell players ( perhaps with the help of an augury ) that something ( like a spidey's danger sense ) is coming near, and it is intense;
equally, after an intense fight, go to the table and Heroes' Feast !

 

[dave2008]

If PC immortals get them as EXTRA, so do NPC monsters.

What do you mean by "extra?" I guess if you are not calculating LA into PC combat effectiveness is makes sense to eliminate them from NPC/Monster CR. However, like I said before, you should be clear that these are something else. They are not really Legendary Actions or Legendary monsters at this point, they are something different. I believe it is best to be honest and clear and just call them something else: like elite or epic actions / monsters. If you do that, I really have no complaints with your approach and I think it sounds interesting and probably very useful. If you don't change their names then not only is it confusing, it seems like a deliberate attempt to mislead.

 

[Upper_Krust]

well, if making difficult fights, gotta tell players ( perhaps with the help of an augury ) that something ( like a spidey's danger sense ) is coming near, and it is intense;

Absolutely, there will be Omens surrounding the arrival/awakening/birth of the most deadly epic foes.

equally, after an intense fight, go to the table and Heroes' Feast !

At epic level there are no easy encounters, just Hard, Deadly and "I warned you".

 

[Upper_Krust]

What do you mean by "extra?" I guess if you are not calculating LA into PC combat effectiveness is makes sense to eliminate them from NPC/Monster CR.

Exactly.

However, like I said before, you should be clear that these are something else. They are not really Legendary Actions or Legendary monsters at this point, they are something different.

They ARE Legendary Actions though, so I don't understand why I need to rename them something else.

I believe it is best to be honest and clear and just call them something else: like elite or epic actions / monsters. If you do that, I really have no complaints with your approach and I think it sounds interesting and probably very useful. If you don't change their names then not only is it confusing, it seems like a deliberate attempt to mislead.

I don't see what the confusion is. Immortal PCs get Legendary Actions at the same pace I give Legendary Actions to NPC Monsters and Deities of a similar power.

 

[le Redoutable]

Absolutely, there will be Omens surrounding the arrival/awakening/birth of the most deadly epic foes.



At epic level there are no easy encounters, just Hard, Deadly and "I warned you".

then I must interfere with things like Star Wars, the Dark Phoenix and Dragon Ball Z:
You just Cannot destroy a planet, because a planet has found a semi-permanent place in the universe;
if you use DB Z tools ( apart from Ariel ) the Sacred Dragon ( if not a representation of the Planet herself ) will easily evacuate the intruders, telephoning to a friendly and well calculated planet to get the intruders a base of operation that would help them eliminating their struggle for power intent ;

 

[dave2008]

Howdy dave2008 mate!

Right back at ya!

Yet in so doing they made ALL their epic monsters completely weak pushovers that get stomped by epic tier characters,

That has nothing to do with including legendary actions in the CR. I mean sure, if I don't count 1/3 of a creatures damage in the CR calc, that will make the CR lower, but that is also just lying about the CR of the monster.

Epic Monsters are weak for a few reasons:

• There CR is to low (don't do enough damage primarily)
• They don't have enough movement options
• They don't have tips and tricks to deal with player abilities.
• They don't have enough interesting abilities

Your method might help solve the first one, but it doesn't anything about the rest of them. The first method can be handled by just upping the CR too.

Indirectly you are weakening them though.

No, I don't agree with that perspective. That is to meta IMO. They are what they are, nothing more or less. The CR should reflect that.

Wrong, I am building it into the CR gradually rather than all at once.

I have no idea what that means, I guess I will have to wait and see!

Only Mythic Monsters get their XP adjusted.

My real question is: are tagging or noting your monsters in some way so that it is clear that they are not standard or legendary monsters? Are you calling your version of Legendary Actions something else, like I feel you should?

I'm using the primary factors not the secondary factors, because they are a waste of time (assuming you don't go overboard with pages of actions).

I just think you are wrong on that, based on my experience. So I will need to adjsut your CRs for my use. But I typically used custom epic monsters anyway.

If PC immortals get Legendary Actions then you can't nerf the NPC immortals who have them. I prefer a level playing field.

Well that is obviously not how it works RAW, but it your system and you can do what you want. Just be clear that it is your system please.

DPR is already counted for with the Primary factors. If something looks completely bonkers (permanent damage for instance) I'll make a judgement call on toning the damage down but unless its a complete game changer I'll leave it as is - epic PCs are helluva tough.

This doesn't seem like a response to my question so I will be a bit more clear. With your monsters are Legendary Actions that cause damage a Primary factor? If not, why not?

As regards teleport, a 3 action version might be an interupt. But two vanilla teleports should both be 1 action, not 1 for this guy and 3 for this guy.

That is a bit disappointing, but I get that it makes design easier.

Yes best to wait and see for yourself.

Yep, I look forward to looking it over. Good luck finishing it up!

Without some sort of structure to it there is no point. Power is RELATIVE. Demon Princes contest with one another because they are all on a similar strata of power. That's why WotC have them at similar CR's.

I need to know how powerful these gods are within a fairly tight 'bandwidth'. Otherwise titles (like Demon Prince) become meaningless.

OK, I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking generally, not specifically. In terms of 5e currently (not with your changes to CR), this is what I did (so this is what felt right to me):

Demon Lords: CR 21-30
Demon Princes: CR 31-35

Demigods: CR 21-25
Lesser gods: CR 26-30
Intermediate gods: CR 31-35
Greater gods: CR 36-40

Ever? Seven Level 20 characters are tougher than four, for instance.

For me personally, pretty much yes. In my epic rules, mortals will have basically 0 chance without divine intervention to take on a demon prince.

In terms of standard 5e I would say 4-5 typical lvl 20 PCs can't take down a demon prince. If you get 7+ and/or have exceptional equipment: artifacts, boons, etc., then there is at least a chance.

For me, being 20th level isn't enough. You need to be an exception level 20 band of heroes to take down a demon prince.

I'll try to have a few in there.

I'm sure you will and I can't wait. Keep up the good work!

 

[dave2008]

Exactly.

OK, that makes more sense now.

They ARE Legendary Actions though, so I don't understand why I need to rename them something else.



I don't see what the confusion is. Immortal PCs get Legendary Actions at the same pace I give Legendary Actions to NPC Monsters and Deities of a similar power.

Because what you are doing is foundationally different than what the standard game assumes. In 5e Legendary Actions are counted as part of the CR. That damage or effect is Primary to use your words. You are treating them differently. You don't need to change the mechanics, just call them Epic Actions or Paragon Actions or whatever. That makes it very clear that though very similar, these should be treated differently because they are different. It seems like such an obvious solution that really solves most, if not all, of my issues with your system that I am not sure why you are hung up on holding onto the Legendary Action name.

You can say that you don't think LA should be Primary, but the standard game assumes they are. If you are changing that assumption, why not just give it a different name. You can end all confusion in one swoop.