Crash Course in 4th ed.

[LostSoul]

Hum, so the way the Page 42 reference comes together sounds a lot like in Tunnels & Trolls where the GM uses his judgment to decide on a Saving Roll target number dependent on the difficulty and other factors based upon the situation. Well, that certainly is a good thing and if I think of that in those terms I can picture it.

Yup. It also helps to familiarize yourself with the conditions.

I am hearing a lot about players and DM getting locked into the "card/power only" mindset. Not to toot my own horn, but I think (at least I hope) that won't be an issue with me.

I think one of the reasons this problem exists is because the powers are supposed to work no matter what, regardless of the situation. If you said, "No, in this situation, that power's not going to work", combined with adjudicating the results of actions based on the situation and not any concern for "balance", you can move away from it.

This would be like saying, "No, you can't use Spinning Sweep (fighter encounter 1) against the ooze; it doesn't have any legs to sweep out" and "You want to throw the curtain over the bad guy? Sure, make an attack - Dex vs. Ref; on a hit, he's Blinded, and on his turn he can throw off the curtain with a Minor Action. If someone Grabs him in a bear hug, or otherwise pins that curtain over him, he'll be Blinded until he Escapes."

(That's why it's helpful to know the different conditions!)

 

[filthgrinder]

I think one thing to remember here is that you'll be running the D&D Encounters program. From what I've heard it is basically a "one encounter" a session thing with an estimated 1 hour play experience. A quick fix of D&D. For those of us who can't add in a four hour Living FR game but still would like to do some RPGA play.

I've also heard whispers that it's going to be an interesting encounter thats dynamic and has cool stuff going on, not just, "here are some orcs". but maybe some connected tunnels with orcs and some weird terrain and a trap/tactic that the orcs are using. Stuff to really show off the all the great stuff with 4E's tactical combats.

With that in mind, I think you should do fine with DMing 4E in this situation without having to worry about alot of stuff. You don't really need to completely understand/accept the skirmisher/brute/etc monster roles, as the encounters will be all laid out for you. Every encounter published for 4E so far has a "tactics" section which explains how everything should work. As an experienced DM, you'll probably be able to figure it out right away and see how it works.

The best piece of advice I think you need is to figure out before hand how you want to track conditions. Ongoing damage, Dazed, stunned, bloodied, blind, slow, MARKS, and other fun stuff. There are alot of different ways to track stuff, so just pick your favorite. People use bottle cap rings, poker chips, magnets, stickers, flags, standees, and all sorts of fun stuff. Tracking conditions is the NUMBER ONE headache of running a combat. Figure out a smooth way to handle that, and you will be fine.

 

[RedBeardJim]

The best piece of advice I think you need is to figure out before hand how you want to track conditions. Ongoing damage, Dazed, stunned, bloodied, blind, slow, MARKS, and other fun stuff. There are alot of different ways to track stuff, so just pick your favorite. People use bottle cap rings, poker chips, magnets, stickers, flags, standees, and all sorts of fun stuff. Tracking conditions is the NUMBER ONE headache of running a combat. Figure out a smooth way to handle that, and you will be fine.

Condition Cards!!!

Note: I am not the creator of the cards, I just think they're awesome so I'm pimping them wherever seems relevant.

 

[WSmith]

I have to say thanks to everyone so far. All the advice is helpful.

Filthgrinder, thanks for the support. I was hoping since it would only be an encounter of about an hour or so that it would be a good way to jump into 4e and try it out. The conditions are something I am keeping an eye on, cause I can tell that can get out of hand very quickly. Which is why...

... the link RedBeardJim posted is pretty darn groovy. That's a good aid. Also, while we are on the subject, I remember reading a thread here a while ago about someone that made a quick character card that only had the most important info on it. The DM used it in a game and it worked really well. Does anyone remember that one?

Lost Soul, I think I need some clarification on something you said...

This would be like saying, "No, you can't use Spinning Sweep (fighter encounter 1) against the ooze; it doesn't have any legs to sweep out" and "You want to throw the curtain over the bad guy? Sure, make an attack - Dex vs. Ref; on a hit, he's Blinded, and on his turn he can throw off the curtain with a Minor Action. If someone Grabs him in a bear hug, or otherwise pins that curtain over him, he'll be Blinded until he Escapes."

This might sound like an insane question, but is the overall theme of 4e to say "yes" to everything, including things like the above bolded text? Something I was reading, (not sure now, everything is a blur in the crash course) that you should try to say yes, (like Jim Carey in "Yes Man") to everything and find a creative way to make it work. If a power doesn't fit the creature, I would think saying "no" would be correct, like the ooze and the leg sweep power. In fact, I was thinking one encounter might be a "anti-arcane" zone in a dungeon where arcane powers don't work, or "anti-martial arena" where combatants duke it out, toe to toe, mano-y-mano, with basic attacks and wits and martial powers cannot function.

Lost Soul, on a side note, do you still have the website of your games from a while ago with the miniatures and the coffee table and blocks and stuff? I loved looking at that pics.

I am feeling more confident thanks to all the research and all the helpful posts by you guys.

 

[Nightson]

Don't think of powers as sets of moves that the character pulls off, think of them as narrative devices, especially with martial powers. Creatures that don't have traditional ambulation (oozes, ghosts, etc.) aren't immune to being knocked prone, prone just doesn't represent sitting on the ground to them, it represents something where they can move and fight with reduced efficiency or spend a move action to get themselves back into proper fighting order.

So the exact same move, Spinning Sweep, could be described in several ways.

When fighting a human opponent he lets his guard down for a moment and you lash out with your foot and send him down to the ground.

When fighting an ooze, you score a vicious hit that requires the ooze spend a move action to reseal itself.

When fighting a dragon the dragon backs up to avoid the fighters swing and slips on the stone, or the ice, or a patch of loose rocks and goes down.


With regards to disabling power sources. Used properly this may be a nice spice for the characters, but keep in mind that the power sources aren't unbalanced with regards to each other anymore, and PCs don't have ways of bypassing such things. It is essentially telling one or more PCs to sit out the fight. So you better have something for them to do in game to make a difference.

 

[LostSoul]

This might sound like an insane question, but is the overall theme of 4e to say "yes" to everything, including things like the above bolded text?

Yeah, that's the general advice for DMing 4e, though I'm pretty sure the DM has the authority to say "No" - I think it's a rule, though I can't quote a page.

There are different ways to look at the powers and how they function, though. You can change the flavour text around the power (at the moment the power is used) so that the power makes more sense - like stunning whatever method of locomotion an ooze uses and knocking it off-balance so it's "Prone".

However, if you do that, the flavour - the description of the attack, what the character actually does - doesn't have any effect on resolution. I think that's one of the reasons that players only think about what power to use instead of engaging with the in-game situation.

The benefit to running things this way is that the game is balanced and makes for some interesting interactions in combat. The drawback, like I said above, is that players tend to ignore what's going on in game-world terms.

How you want to run it is going to depend on what you find important when you play the game. If you take the "Say No" path, make sure you make that explicit to the players because I don't think that's what most players will expect.

I like the idea of an anti-arcane zone. I think it would be interesting to have a zone like that, but still allow cantrips - and then make sure there's enough stuff around for creative use of Mage Hand. Chandeliers, curtains, rugs, braziers, doors... all of those can be manipulated via Mage Hand and could have an impact on the battle. It would be a good test of a Wizard's creativity.

Lost Soul, on a side note, do you still have the website of your games from a while ago with the miniatures and the coffee table and blocks and stuff? I loved looking at that pics.

Here it is: D&D Campaign

We all moved away a long time ago so there aren't likely to be any updates. My brother still has all the gear, though.

 

[RedBeardJim]

... the link RedBeardJim posted is pretty darn groovy. That's a good aid. Also, while we are on the subject, I remember reading a thread here a while ago about someone that made a quick character card that only had the most important info on it. The DM used it in a game and it worked really well. Does anyone remember that one?

Was it something like this?

 

[Garthanos]

Since spinning sweep was brought up... Its actually my favorite fighters disarm maneuver.(my other is as a finishing move.. or an intimidate effect.)

The enemy bobbles there weapon and is forced in to kneeling down while scrambling after the weapon (prone also represents kneeling) ...The point being the power is not just one thing.

For an ooze you manage to hit a pocket of the ooze which disrupts it ... a freak chance occurrence where a fighters instinct found a hot spot which deforms it so that its mobility is impaired until its bits shift back together.

 

[WSmith]

Awwww. I got it now. A sweep is not a "sweep" per se. That is just a flavor name and fluff for the maneuver. What matters is the end result which is a game condition.

Lost Soul, that's the link. Thanks.

Jim, that is the exact sheet. Were you the one that posted about using it in a game?

 

[Garthanos]

Awwww. I got it now. A sweep is not a "sweep" per se. That is just a flavor name and fluff for the maneuver. What matters is the end result which is a game condition.

Combine that insight with HP loss != Wounds, and you are a long ways to the goal posts.

oops no the goal posts are having fun... eating snacks and pretending we are elves.