D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS

[thalmin]

I wish we could focus this mostly on DMs. Players rarely want to give up power. Though it is nice to know at least the community is fairly split with 54% wanting to do something about the feat and 46% wanting to leave it as is.

Actually, the respondents of "other" can't be catagorically listed as on one side of the split or the other. "Other" could mean "There is no problem" or "these feats should give -1+15" or "these feats should give -5/-5 for trying to be so cheesy". We need to look at each response from that group to see what they each mean.

 

[Coredump]

That's a very interesting question.

My initial response would be, "about as much as a +2 ASI to your damage-dealing stat." So for example, a feat that increases a barbarian's damage should be, in my opinion, roughly equal to a +1 to hit and damage, however much that boost is worth on average.

Not a bad place to start. But a +2 Dex helps damage, but it also helps AC and Saving throws and skills and attack/damage with other weapons. While SS is really only helping deal damage (in a variety of ways)

Granted +2 Str isn't helping as many things....


But its a place to start. I used my PC Archer for the test, may or may not be 'typical' but I had to pick something, and at least this is a real example.

Rogue2/Ranger2 16 Dex, Longbow, Archery style, Hunter's Mark, Sneak Attack, +8 attk bonus +3 damage.
Measuring from AC 11 to AC 25
The only time SS is better is for AC 13 and under, otherwise you are better off with the +1 Dex. By AC 17 you are better off not using SS at all.
By AC 20, the +1 Dex gives a 18% boost, and SS gives a 23% *reduction*. (Granted, you just wouldn't use it; so it wouldn't really cost you those damage points.)

Now, this does not take into account the Ignore Cover, but neither the AC/savingthrow/Skill benefits.

My guess is feats like Crossbow Expert and Polearm Master will give a bigger boost than SS or GWM. Then again, Casting Bless may give more than any of them.

 

[Coredump]

A solution I'd like to try one day is to change the +10 to +one weapon die.

That's a lot less than +10 but it seems like a more reasonable amount. It would also favor greataxe over greatsword since it's established that "one weapon die" on a 2d6 weapon means 1d6. That asymmetry seems to fit the flavor of this feat, plus greataxe needs all the help it can get.

Maybe at 11th level it becomes +two weapon dice or something, to remain relevant at higher levels. I haven't fully thought that through.

That will never be worth it. If you use 2D6 for a greatsword and you have GWF.... then its just nerfed. But for a longbow, or even a glaive..... just remove it at that point. Only useful against Zombies.... (AC 8)

 

[Coredump]

When a party is fighting a single powerful monster or NPC supposedly strong enough to challenge them alone, and GWM and Sharpshooter double the damage on the target on top of everyone else novaing while buffed to the gills creates a very anticlimactic battle. There have been multiple instances where the players have taken a fight and turned it trivial due to those two feats doubling the damage of an Action Surging fighter or increased the damage by about 30% per hit for a smiting paladin. .

I am going to need more details... because I have done a lot of math for a lot of possible situations... and that just doesn't happen. Maybe if you manage to always have advantage against an AC 12 creature..... but otherwise those numbers just don't make sense.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I find balance is only important as it relates to sharing the spotlight and given that there are three pillars in the game - not just the one - not everyone needs to be equal when it comes to damage output.

If your players are happy with that kind of balance, I think it would work very well.

 

[Celtavian]

I am going to need more details... because I have done a lot of math for a lot of possible situations... and that just doesn't happen. Maybe if you manage to always have advantage against an AC 12 creature..... but otherwise those numbers just don't make sense.

Our party used the following. Bard would cast bless. Action Surging battlemaster would sit on his Battlemaster Dice to use precision for those attacks he missed.

Let's say attack sequences looks something like this.

1. Wizard casts fly on GWM fighter.

2. Fighter flies in to dragon. Uses Action Surge. He has a +1 sword and is 11th level. Adult Dragon AC is 18. He gets +4 prof. +4 str. +1 sword +1d4 with bless.

Hit roll: +11 without GWM Dam: 2d6+5 for 12 average damage.
Hit roll: +6 with GWM. Dam: 2d6+15 for 22 average damage

Against an AC of 18.
Average percentage to hit without GWM: 65%
Average percentage to hit with GWM: 40%

So average damage against AC 18 without GWM with 3 attacks per round equaling two hits: 24 points
So average damage against AC 18 with GWM with 3 attacks per round equaling 1 hit: 22 points

Now incorporate the nova attack blowing Battlemaster Dice adding 1d8 to each attack roll that misses and having a bardic inspiration dice as well, an average bonus to hit 4.5.

Damage without GWM: 36 points
Damage with GWM three hits: 66 points.

Not quite double, but around 80% damage boosted during a nova with battle master dice. Action Surge. You're looking at the difference between 72 points and 132 points. Then there is the variable of the d4 from bless and general variable die rolls on the d20. If the AC is lower, it becomes even easier to nova such as it was against the non-dragon caster and prophet we fought.

The smiting paladin is more theory-crafting since he did not have GWM. A 3rd level spell with greater divine smite does 5d8 smite damage. With longsword that is 2d6+5 plus 5d8 for an average 39 point hit. GWM adds +10 damage. It's around a possible 26% increase in damage for a smiting paladin. Not quite as bad as the fighter. Given the paladin has two vows that completely eliminate the -5 penalty, he probably hits more often than the fighter in single target situations.

So it's looking closer to an 80% increase for the Action Surging Battle Master fighter (Champion won't see the same results due to no means to boost hit roll and GWM not being effected by crits). Eldritch Knight may if invisible or using some other means to boost attack.

Paladin will see a roughly 26% increase in damage all things being equal.

Barbarian can probably use GWM better than either of the above classes. The Battlemaster fighter took a couple of levels of barbarian later on, he was using GWM with Reckless all the time. Maybe did not use a few times when fighting someone with an AC in the 20 range, but still novaed with GWM and Reckless for a lot of damage.

Sharpshooter is closer to doubling damage and easier to use due to bonus to hit with Archery style as well as eliminating pesky problems like cover with lower damage bow. Average bow damage is 1d8+4. Sharpshooter doubles that.

The problem is narrow from my perspective. I don't care if the martial uses GWM or Sharpshooter against multiple targets. Clearing trash fast is fine as I don't like spending a long time rolling for multiple combatants. It's those instances where the party is novaing on a single target that really chaps my hide with the Sharpshooter and GWM unloading with both feats using multiple attacks. Maybe non-minmaxers or those that don't track damage don't notice the difference, but for those of us that do track this stuff it is a very annoying effect. Makes playing enemy casters and single target monsters not particularly fun as a DM. When a big dragon has to run from a Sharpshooter bowmen or GWM fighter backed up by a party because they will output far more damage than he will, that isn't a fun bit of action imagery in my mind when DMing.

"Look at that, the dragon tucked his tail and ran from the bowman and fighter. They hit him way too hard. Poor little (I mean huge) dragon."

Or the even worse:

Your players saying, "That was the main encounter? That guy? The guy in the magic mask? He was supposed to be a tough fight? Oh." This is followed by a shrug, while the DM wonders why the guy was so weak.

 

[Celtavian]

GWM is ok in Not combined with polarm master. Sharpshooter is ok in Not combined es with crossbow expert.
If IT World Not Work on Bonus Action attacks IT Would help.

Crossbow Expert would be fine without Sharpshooter. Polearm Master would be fine without GWM. It's the other way around as I see it.

 

[DaveDash]

I am going to need more details... because I have done a lot of math for a lot of possible situations... and that just doesn't happen. Maybe if you manage to always have advantage against an AC 12 creature..... but otherwise those numbers just don't make sense.

Numbers from an actual game - couple of fights. SS Fighter using SS all the time. Buffs like bless up usually. Three attacks each on each Fighter.

Round 1:
Fighter (Standard): 40 damage.
Fighter (SS): 54 damage.

Round 2:
Fighter (Standard): 28 damage.
Fighter (SS): 41 damage.

Round 3:
Fighter (Standard): 28 damage.
Fighter (SS): 38 damage.

Round 4:
Fighter (Standard): 22 damage.
Fighter (SS): 43 damage.

Round 5:
Fighter (Standard): 32 damage.
Fighter (SS): 77 damage.

Round 6:
Fighter (Standard): 21 damage.
Fighter (SS): 135 damage.

Totals:
Fighter (Standard): 171 damage.
Fighter (SS): 388 damage.

Fighting: Winter Wolves, Vampires, Vampire Spawns, Wraiths, Shades, Erinyes, Fire Giants, Hell Hounds, and Chimeras.
Both used an action surge by the looks in those logs.

I have lots of data that looks like this - the pattern is the same. About a 2:1 ratio over the course of an adventuring day, sometimes 3:1. In the roll20 log it looked like SS Fighter rolled a lot of 1's as well.

Sometimes the theory doesn't work out the same as the reality. Bless & Archery style basically make it -0.5 / +10.

 

[Celtavian]

That's why I like real data over theory-craft. Incorporates a variety of ACs and situations that show how the numbers work during real play. That's about how my data was when I recorded it. Trash fights the GWM really shined when the wizard wasn't AoEing. His novas were way higher than anyone else save the paladin against single target as well. It made the optimal tactic buff the GWM and launch him at people. Fun for the GWM, not so fun for my evoker wizard. I was going to simulacrum his character, so I could match his damage.

 

[Hussar]

Umm [MENTION=6786202]DaveDash[/MENTION]. Could you break down you SS fighter a bit. How is he doing 135 points in 3 attacks?