D&D 5E Differing opinions about 5e

[Warpiglet]

Sometimes it's not purely optimizing, but taking a weird concept and making it as optimized as you possibly can in the rule set.

I play in a game that meets once a month, the DM just rebooted the campaign at first level. All the characters are supposed to be descended from one of the gods in the FR pantheon (giving us an extra feat at first level, but nothing else).

My character is a descendant of both Tymora (goddess of good fortune) and Beshaba (goddess of misfortune) - He's a halfling noble (was lucky enough to be born into the right family), his bonus feat is "Lucky" and he's a Sorceror (Wild mage) and soon will have 2 levels of Wizard (Divination). Basically he controls fate - re-rolls 1's automatically (halfling luck), can roll an extra D20 when he needs to (luck feat), can grant himself advantage when he needs to (Tides of Chaos), and can alter fate for himself or others at higher levels (Bend Fate from lvl 6 wild mage and Portent from lvl 2 wizard diviner).

He gets his spells two levels later due to the two levels of wizard, but it gives him Portent and Ritual Casting for several 1st level wizard spells. Not super powerful, but he definitely has an impact on events.

Those extra thematic integrated characters are the ones I really enjoy reading about and playing. I have been babbling about a fallen acolyte I am playing who is a warlock, seduced by the dark side. I am taking magic initiate with cleric spells. It all fits together so far and makes it more fun to play.

Far from optimized, the theme is fun. Nothing like playing a puritan with a low wisdom who does not realize he is actually following a fallen angel...while he tries to make the world clean and right and pure.

 

[S'mon]

I'm finding it just right, and very flexible. Both my non-optimising no-feats no-multiclass low magic group and my feats + multiclass high magic group (with 2 optimiser players) seem appropriately challenged.

 

[Flamestrike]

So which is it? The game is too easy, too hard or just right? And if it is too easy, is it a function of optimizing (which would be a voluntary thing...).

People who think the game is 'too easy' are the same people who allow the 5 minute adventuring day, and still think the challenge of an encounter is surviving/ overcoming the encounter, and not surviving/ overcoming the adventuring day.

The challenge of the game is surviving/ overcoming several encounters before long resting (and recovering HP, HD, spell slots, arcanum, rages, luck points and sorcery points); not just overcoming one encounter.

They don't understand that encounter difficulty (hard, medium, deadly etc) in 5E is predicated on the expectation that players have to deal with around 6-8 of them (defeating each one) before recovering long rest resources (hit points, hit die, spell slots, arcana, rages, sorcery points).

Bad DMs allow the 5 minute adventuring day either through ignorance or laziness. This throws encounter balance totally out of kilter as the players are able to nova (dumping all long rest resources) the single encounter, trivializing it. In response to players Nova-ing an encounter, the bad DM then proceeds to ramp up encounter difficulty to Deadly+... thus forcing the players to optimize and employ nova tactics, or else die.

These same DMs then log onto internet forums and complain that the game is unbalanced, sook that short rest classes like the Fighter, Monk and Warlock are weak, boldy state that long rest classes like Paladin, full casters and Barbarian are too powerful, or whinge about encounter difficulty.

They'll also propose all sorts of tweaks and changes, but will ignore any advice to address the actual issue (DM management of the 5 minute adventuring day).

TO be fair, in addition to criticizing these bad DMs, you can also criticize 5E itself which was built with this expectation (the whole game mechanically balances aroundthe expectation of several encounters between long rests/ adventuring day, and is also how the game balances classes).

 

[ad_hoc]

TO be fair, in addition to criticizing these bad DMs, you can also criticize 5E itself which was built with this expectation (the whole game mechanically balances aroundthe expectation of several encounters between long rests/ adventuring day, and is also how the game balances classes).

At that point it is kind of like criticizing a horror movie for being scary.

5e is achievings its goals. Sometimes if you don't like what a game is going for it's time for a different game.

 

[Flamestrike]

At that point it is kind of like criticizing a horror movie for being scary.

5e is achievings its goals. Sometimes if you don't like what a game is going for it's time for a different game.

They could have given all classes an even mix of short rest and long rest abilities.

Under the current system, you (the DM) have one hand on a dial called 'encounter frequency' and another hand on a dial called 'short rest frequency'. By dialing those two up or down, you grant different classes the opportunity to shine, and dramatically alter class balance.

The good thing with 5E's method is simply by tweaking those dials, I can hand out single encounter days to my players allowing the casters and paladins to stand out, followed by a longer multiple encounter adventuring day (with frequent short rest opportunities) so the fighters, monks and warlocks can stand out.

You can move the spotlight around your players (and buff or nerf classes) simply by adding or reducing encounters and/or short rests.

It takes more finesse and DM skill with the method WOTC selected, but its pretty neat mechanic once you get the hang of it.

 

[Warpiglet]

They could have given all classes an even mix of short rest and long rest abilities.

Under the current system, you (the DM) have one hand on a dial called 'encounter frequency' and another hand on a dial called 'short rest frequency'. By dialing those two up or down, you grant different classes the opportunity to shine, and dramatically alter class balance.

The good thing with 5E's method is simply by tweaking those dials, I can hand out single encounter days to my players allowing the casters and paladins to stand out, followed by a longer multiple encounter adventuring day (with frequent short rest opportunities) so the fighters, monks and warlocks can stand out.

You can move the spotlight around your players (and buff or nerf classes) simply by adding or reducing encounters and/or short rests.

It takes more finesse and DM skill with the method WOTC selected, but its pretty neat mechanic once you get the hang of it.

Honestly, I realize what you say is true but believe it is very easy for a DM to get into the game and have things come up without these thoughts in front of mind. A party setting up a spot to rest is pretty mundane. The DM has to stay alert to this and calculate how feasible it truly is.

If you think about it, resting in a dungeon should be no easy feat. Conversely, unless you are being run down by cavalry, resting in the wilderness is easier. I guess this is where the DM need to remember that allies of the slain might not just wait patiently for another assault.

It sound like the game can be easy any time attrition is not employed, otherwise, unlimited resources skew things. I Know as a warlock I rarely want to blow both spells in an encounter. I hold one just in case...barring and earlier than expected short rest.

 

[Flamestrike]

Honestly, I realize what you say is true but believe it is very easy for a DM to get into the game and have things come up without these thoughts in front of mind. A party setting up a spot to rest is pretty mundane. The DM has to stay alert to this and calculate how feasible it truly is.

If you think about it, resting in a dungeon should be no easy feat. Conversely, unless you are being run down by cavalry, resting in the wilderness is easier. I guess this is where the DM need to remember that allies of the slain might not just wait patiently for another assault.

It sound like the game can be easy any time attrition is not employed, otherwise, unlimited resources skew things. I Know as a warlock I rarely want to blow both spells in an encounter. I hold one just in case...barring and earlier than expected short rest.

The game doesn't help new DMs either, with the [6-8 encounter/ 2-3 short rest/ XP per adventuring day chart showing the need for frequent days featuring multiple encounters] stuff kind of hidden away and only obliquely referred to.

Many have to find out for themselves in actual play, and unfortunately most respond to it by simply 'dialing up' encounter difficulty (and not by restricting rests, and using more encounters per long rest).

Of course, all dialing up encounter difficulty does, is force players to rely on the 5 minute adventuring day. Players now have to Nova and rely on the 5 minute adventuring day just to stay alive! Instead of fixing the problem, you've now mandated it.

If it happens to you as DM, you need to stop and approach it from a different angle. Instead of dialing up encounter difficulty, find a way to police the 5 minute adventuring day so your adventuring days (the time between long rest recharges, however long that may be in game*) feature a default of around half a dozen encounters, and around 2ish short rests.

Not all the time of course, but as a general default that should be the rough baseline adventuring day length.

(*'Adventuring day' could be a month of game time here if one is using the Gritty realism variant - or even just a single hour if one is using the Super Heroic rest variant where long rests are only an hour long)

 

[Caliban]

Well, the DM also controls "Encounter Complexity" and "Encounter Deadliness" that can significantly impact how many resources are used.

A complex encounter involves a lot of moving parts (either multiple opponents with different abilities, significant terrain or environmental features, possibly a puzzle aspect that takes place simultaneously with the combat). It may not be inherently more deadly, but it forces the PC's to consider more options and possibly gives them extra resources, or new ways to use their current resources. (Perhaps a crevasse with lava at the bottom - pushing an opponent into it may be a lot more deadly than simply attacking them. Perhaps there is a magical device that can temporarily empower an ally if you use an action and a successful Arcana check, perhaps one of the enemies has a magic item you can immediately use once you take them out, etc).

Or you can adjust the deadliness of an encounter upward to force the party to use more resources, or downward to require less resources as the situation demands. The trick is to do it without letting the players know you are adjusting things for or against them on the fly, as that can make them feel like the DM either 'won't let them win' - which is frustrating, or 'won't let them lose' - which can rob them of a sense of accomplishment. The idea isn't to softball a combat for them, but to keep it from dragging on and draining more resources than you think it should so they can have some fun stuff left for the big fight later.

 

[Imaro]

They could have given all classes an even mix of short rest and long rest abilities.

Under the current system, you (the DM) have one hand on a dial called 'encounter frequency' and another hand on a dial called 'short rest frequency'. By dialing those two up or down, you grant different classes the opportunity to shine, and dramatically alter class balance.

The good thing with 5E's method is simply by tweaking those dials, I can hand out single encounter days to my players allowing the casters and paladins to stand out, followed by a longer multiple encounter adventuring day (with frequent short rest opportunities) so the fighters, monks and warlocks can stand out.

You can move the spotlight around your players (and buff or nerf classes) simply by adding or reducing encounters and/or short rests.

It takes more finesse and DM skill with the method WOTC selected, but its pretty neat mechanic once you get the hang of it.

The game has also given us the dial for converting short rest abilities to long rest abilities. All you do is multiply the number of uses by 3 and you have a daily ability. The only thing to determine is how to allow characters to use healing.

We have the dial to turn the 6-8 encounters into less encounters. Want 3-4 encounters per day well then double the XP value of the encounter and have a short rest every 1-2 encounters (max 2). Want one encounter... convert the short rest resources to daily and use the XP for an adventuring day. It's a pretty transparent system they use in 5e.

 

[CydKnight]

Too easy? Too hard? I find it more akin to a set of circumstances for which I have to decide what to do next. So it's largely more about the overall experience to me and that's going to be determined by the setting being portrayed. A DM can always adjust the game to make things like combat or ability checks harder or easier either by adjusting the statistics or the environment or both. In that regards what draws me to 5E is the flexibility it provides to both DM and Player.