Discussion - LEW 4th Edition

[Rystil Arden]

For now, I believe it is best for there to be a functioning Fourth Edition Living World "shortly" after the 4E rulebooks are released. A Living Enworld converted to 4E from 3.5 cannot provide that due to the conversion process - at that time, few people will be equipped to, say, convert the races, the custom spells, or the prestige classes, whatever form they take (or even weapons! Remember that fighters get some powers from weapon choice). We need to understand certain aspects of the rules first, resulting in a lengthy conversion process.
A new Living World might be able to provide gaming almost right off the release of the DMG (the third book this time around), even adventures (We'll have at least Keep of the Shadowfell, and D&DI subscribers probably will have a few Dungeon adventures to run for the characters).

That said - Once 4E is released, the Living Enworld community may well decide that we should make the switch as well, even if at this time it seems that more people resist that step than embrace it. That is something we shouldn't forget, and isn't something that is at odds with a seperate 4E Living World. Maybe some people should look at how some aspects of LEW could be translated to 4E early (and I'm sure some people will, if only out of curiosity). But it isn't something that needs to, or even can, be decided now.

I agree with everything KO2 said. Also, from what I've seen of 4E so far, which may be an incomplete view, I am currently strongly against converting LEW to it under any circumstances barring certain death by player exodus.

 

[Wik]

That might be the direction people want to lean, but nobody has a right to have ruled out anything yet.

Exactly. And I agree with CS on another thing - it's great to start speculating early. Fun, too.

To be honest, I'm opposed to the "conversion" idea, for a few simple reasons.

1) My characters could wind up being completely different in abilities (If, for example, Galwynn wound up losing some of his nifty paladin abilities in exchange to some new abilities that I don't like).
2) The process itself would take some amount of time, and would be a HUGE headache for our judges.
3) I'm sure there will be some 3.5 lovers who wouldn't want to convert; forcing them to convert to a game they don't wanna play seems like a bad idea.

I think KO is right in that a functioning world released just before the final book is out would be a good idea. That being said, I also think it's great to discuss this subject long before we actually put pen to paper.

While a great world, I think the "loose" method of design has resulted in some flaws in LEW - the original abundance of high level NPCs (look at the Orussus town guard, as originally written!), as well as the fact that it can be hard to navigate the world itself. I think, this time around, we know a bit more about designing a world for PbP, and I firmly believe that L4W is going to be great.

 

[Rystil Arden]

While a great world, I think the "loose" method of design has resulted in some flaws in LEW - the original abundance of high level NPCs

Having few high-level NPCs was originally a design goal. It's just that a few Judges/GMs got carried away doing silly things. But if we don't allow that in our new world (even if we eventually fix it later like we did to that awful munchkin stuff by Mithreander), we're being far too draconian and stifling creativity, and I for one would never want to be a part of that world as a GM.

 

[Creamsteak]

I really think you have to fight your gut instinct sometimes and just let people use things differently. If someone has a more grim adventure, and another a high-sorcery one, you just need to let things be on a certain level. The whole idea is to be as forgiving as is reasonable. Of course, this doesn't apply to player characters equally. Keeping a tight control mechanism on players so that they are portable to every games philosophy is important (hense why I heavily favored core mechanics and the SRD). Of course, dms could always say, "I don't like half-dragon monk barbarian sorcerers, so I'm sorry but I'm not taking you into my adventure."

 

[orsal]

So now it's already decided that L4W will be a completely separate world?

I strongly support that. That way, the LEW and L4W communities will have the freedom to develop their respective worlds without stepping on each other's toes.

 

[Wik]

Having few high-level NPCs was originally a design goal. It's just that a few Judges/GMs got carried away doing silly things. But if we don't allow that in our new world (even if we eventually fix it later like we did to that awful munchkin stuff by Mithreander), we're being far too draconian and stifling creativity, and I for one would never want to be a part of that world as a GM.

Good point. Don't really wanna step on toes, and all that jazz.

 

[Wik]

Right. I think at this stage of the game, the main thing that needs to be figured out are the bare bones of a campaign world.

I think a PbP world has slightly different design needs than a typical D&D world, in that time is much more important. A large world (ie, one that would require a lot of travel to get from place to place) will eat up a lot of time. What would take maybe one session to accomplish in a face to face game can easily take three to four months in PbP. And I think burning four months before the adventure really starts would get kind of annoying.

That in mind, I think L4W should be smaller in scale - not North America, or anything. I was saying earlier that an Archipelego model would work, but there are other options. The main goal, though, is to make travel a part of the game, but not something that's going to eat up such a huge amount of time "at the table".

Also, and this goes against my previous point, the campaign world needs to support a wide variety of terrain types. We need oceans, deserts, ice worlds, jungles, plains, and and decidous forests. Doing this will allow GMs freedom in creating their adventures.

Finally, L4W also needs a good starting city - and I think this city should perhaps be a bit larger than Orussus (although, as RA already pointed out, not a metropolis... but we should put a Ptolus city somewhere in the campaign world!) While not a necessity, I think it might be cool if we made this starting city a bit more dynamic than Orussus, as well - perhaps something that makes the city unique (as a hub of teleportation gates, for example... or that it's ruled by ogre kings... or that it has an "upper city" and an underground "lower city").

One last thing I was considering - the last issue of Dungeon had a giant map that was a collection of all the "maps of mystery", and I couldn't help but think how perfect that map would be for a liviing worlds game. Thoughts?

 

[The Goblin King]

Finally, L4W also needs a good starting city - and I think this city should perhaps be a bit larger than Orussus (although, as RA already pointed out, not a metropolis... but we should put a Ptolus city somewhere in the campaign world!) While not a necessity, I think it might be cool if we made this starting city a bit more dynamic than Orussus, as well - perhaps something that makes the city unique (as a hub of teleportation gates, for example... or that it's ruled by ogre kings... or that it has an "upper city" and an underground "lower city")

My thoughts exactly. How about this:

The city is near an ancient gathering spot of a race of magical creatures. They are intelligent and don't mind transporting passengers around. But, there is only so many of them to go around so the Wayfarer Guild handles scheduling for them. The city uses taxes and fees gathered by the Wayfarer Guild to take care of the creatures and pay for the huge garrison protecting the region. Possible creatures are:

Wayfarer Roc's: the origins are lost to time but some suspect it must be planar because they can teleport at will.

Shadow Cats: large cats that can enter the Plane of Shadow through any shadow. They know secret shortcuts and can get anywhere quickly.

Astral Whales: Colossal flying whales that can plane shift. They are accompanied by Large flying remoras that shuttle passengers up and down.

 

[Wik]

Normally, I'd be all for that, but I have a feeling L4W will be more like LEW, in that it's a little more "low-magic" (although that's not a good term; more like "low-level magic").

I was thinking something along the lines of a large dock city, that is perhaps the unofficial capital of the "Free Cities" or something, that were once vassal states to some sort of bad empire to the north. Now, the cities are all independant, but form some sort of confederation of shipping and mercantile interests.

That would give us merchants and wealthy nobles who can hire the PCs, several nearby cities that we can base adventures in (all within a week's travel, less if you go by ship), and even some political adventures (as the various cities vie for dominance among their so-called "allies", and the empire itself could play a hand).

There could be a lot of ships, some even magical (like house Lyrandar, in Eberron, these guys could control the "get there fast" industry). And we can place the city on a river, so that we could send PCs upriver into some sort of jungle or forest that has all sorts of fun secrets to unlock.

Interesting hooks in the city? Haven't quite got that far, although I'm thinking it should be something decidedly general, so GMs could have some fun with it. Maybe the city is ruled by an oligarchic council that only has a certain number of seats, traditionally ruled by merchants that inheret posts due to heredity (sort of like Venice in the 15th and 16th century). And these seats could be filled with various "Councilors" that have weird agendas (and if we keep this open, there's a lot of room for individual GM development). And maybe we could add gobins or kobolds as a race in the city, that is supposedly paid by the city coffers as "waste management" or something.

 

[Bront]

So now it's already decided that L4W will be a completely separate world?

There was a talk about waiting to actually see the rules and having the community decide about converting at the beginning but it seems like that is ruled out now.

I think that it might be better served with a new world because by all acounts, there will be a different cosmology, and core racial makeup of 4E. That's a major enough change to make it hard to convert.

If LEW in it's current form decides to convert, that's fine, but I think sharing elements between a 3.5E and 4E will be confusing, particularly where the rules have changed sigificantly.

That said, doesn't mean it can't happen, but I think several people are embracing the idea of building a new world to explore.