DM can't get the hang of high-level play

[Celtavian]

Re

That reminds me, we just incorporated Hero Points into our game. We give them at the rate of 1 per level, they allow a player to avoid death, land a hit, bypass SR, or make a skill check. These seemed to have helped our survivability substantially. They are a nice way to avoid making major rules changes to death effects and such while still enhancing the survivability of your party.

 

[Will]

Two points...

Some have pointed out the party size issue and, briefly, the lack of a rogue... I can't stress that highly enough.

Having a rogue in a mid level game is _very very very_ important. It'll save you from terribly nasty traps, surprise, and so forth.

I'm in a campaign around 12-14th level, and our rogue is vital. At one point one of the party members wandered off ahead of her... and promptly set off a magic trap that almost killed off the entire group. We made sure everyone knew 'ROGUE GOES FIRST'


But D&D is deadly... sometimes, you just aren't prepared for what you are facing.

Other than DM fudging, another idea is redefining what 'death' is. Instead of 'character is dead due to X spell or at -10 hp,' say 'character is down and dying due to (etc).'

Particularly if you are doing a heroic genre, it shouldn't be hard to do a story-like dramatic 'bleeding and groaning' instead of normal death.

And then raise dead/etc. can become 'recover from near death.' Raise dying?

 

[Nifft]

"Raise Mostly Dead" -- I like it! Good Princess Bride material.

Now, about how to not kill the party. I'm dealing with 10th level PCs right now, and my advice is: use lots of little baddies. Don't throw them up against one CR 13 critter, throw them up against a bunch of CR 6 critters with class levels, or some CR 2-3 critters with lots of class levels.

Or, keep the CR 13 critters with their sudden death attacks, but make sure everyone knows about them -- "Oh, you can't go in there. It's an evil area. I've heard that anyone who enters is turned into a statue by evil magic!" -- Now the party knows THAT there's a threat, some of the NATURE of the threat, and that they need more info on the threat before proceeding. Use misinformation in place of surprise to get your sadistic jollies -- it's what I do.

-- Nifft

 

[Fimmtiu]

With regards to the surprise round thing: hong is correct, as usual. The plant got a partial action and then a full-round action next round.

From Henry: "My first question is whether or not the Cleric and Wizard are using their magic to its fullest advantage. As someone mentioned, buffing spells from the cleric are very useful, as are certain arcane spells that the wizard could have access to."

The problem is that once we know something is there, we buff ourselves like crazy and go in like a hurricane. In situations where we stumble into things or get ambushed, though, our survival rates are depressingly low. Probably in large part because we're not buffed, in fact. But especially when you're travelling long distances, you can't be buffed all the time. That's worth maybe creating some items for, I suppose.

The point about making scrolls and potions is well taken. We should really take some more downtime for that, maybe sometime when everyone isn't trying to kill us.

From Kugar: "You need a diversion. I suggest a hob...Halfling."

The psychic warrior would probably object in a fairly strenuous and violent fashion, being a halfling himself. But that's a good idea to keep around for future use... heh heh.

The dicussion of Action Points, Hero Points, etc., is quite interesting and worth considering. Ditto for Andy Collins' rules for Epic save-or-die spells. The party size issue... well, that's a bigger problem. The psychic warrior actually already has Leadership, and the cleric is his cohort. (We used to have another player, but we had to boot him over some interpersonal conflicts.) I agree that a rogue would be nice... we had one, back at about 6th level, but he ended up bleeding out in a city street, packed full of spinagon quills. A more diverse party would be something to think about, next time we get a chance to introduce a new player or character.

Thanks for all the suggestions! You guys rule. I'll forward the thread to my DM and we'll talk it over before next game.

 

[Tom Cashel]

May I humbly submit...

If

The DM is good about playing monsters fairly

and

The DM is quite consistent about playing bad situations to the hilt if we just bumble in without thinking

then perhaps it's the players who can't get the hang of high-level play.

 

[halfjack]

Re: Re: DM can't get the hang of high-level play

could it be that things like this happen? not a lot of info on this one to work with, but surprise rounds only give partial actions if i am not mistaken, and IF i read this right you are giving full round actions

I'm the referee in question. The creature in this case was a Greenvise and on its surprise round it released its Death Fog ability. On the round following the surprise round the cleric drew a late initiative and the Greenvise full attacked. Dead cleric.

 

[halfjack]

Honestly I think the last death---the cleric getting the smackdown from the Greenvise---was fairly avoidable. The PCs were moving through completely unknown terrain that was obviously dangerous if not actively hostile, and yet they had no long term buffs up and had no native guidance at all. This one I think was their own fault---maybe they got a little lazy from playing a few sessions with no combat in them.

The prior death---the assassin getting the death strike on the Slayer---was not very avoidable, but then it wasn't supposed to be. The assassin was hired by competent intelligent opponents with the objective of killing the Slayer. That sort of thing should have a reasonable chance of success and the dice fell that way. No problem there.

The problem I'm having as a referee is that I can see almost every encounter from here on in being a potential save-or-die situation. I like some of the solutions some of you have suggested---more parties of lower CR creatures is a good plan. Also the idea of using action points a la d20 Modern is intriguing, though it wouldn't have saved the cleric. It's nice having an ace up your sleeve when you get smacked by a save vs. 3d6 con damage or something though.

Anyway, here's my official advice to the party in question: get a native guide already.

 

[Fimmtiu]

Actually, I agree that we were quite at fault with the greenvise thing, particularly since the way we were travelling was incompatible with our usual "flee at the first sign of danger" strategy. I mentioned it because it was a good example of how one can go from alive to very dead without a chance to react at these levels. The other two examples I used were pretty much entirely unavoidable except by saving, though.

We've certainly had our share of bonehead moves and learning experiences as we've been getting more powerful, but we're all getting better -- this is the first long-running 3E game any of us have played yet, after all. Upon further reflection, it feels like it's an every 6 or 7 sessions sort of thing... after a certain amount of time since our last humiliating retreat/defeat, we get more confident, then a little too cocky, then beaten down again. It's just that at these levels, the lessons seem to be a lot messier. Mostly orthogonal, but still related, to the problem of frequent roll-well-or-die situations at these levels.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

From Henry: "My first question is whether or not the Cleric and Wizard are using their magic to its fullest advantage. As someone mentioned, buffing spells from the cleric are very useful, as are certain arcane spells that the wizard could have access to."

The problem is that once we know something is there, we buff ourselves like crazy and go in like a hurricane. In situations where we stumble into things or get ambushed, though, our survival rates are depressingly low. Probably in large part because we're not buffed, in fact. But especially when you're travelling long distances, you can't be buffed all the time. That's worth maybe creating some items for, I suppose.

Sure you can. At 12th level, it takes two second level spells for one stat buff to last all day. A lesser metamagic rod of extend spell lets one spell last all day. So, spend all day buffed.

Similarly, the wizard has access to Energy Buffer (bbn 2/Wiz 10 IIRC); a rod of extend spell will let that last two days and it'll probably absorb the first energy attack that comes each character's way.

Especially when travelling long distances, it's quite possible to be buffed all day. (You're not as buffed as you can be in a short-term situation (when you can use min/level and round/level spells) and you make a certain trade-off in terms of available firepower for any given encounter but the hour/level and day duration spells make a big difference and if you're travelling for a long time, two or three spells of each level are probably enough for the one or two combats you might need to face. . . .)

The point about making scrolls and potions is well taken. We should really take some more downtime for that, maybe sometime when everyone isn't trying to kill us.

Well downtime is important, but if you don't have it, buy them off of someone else. Offer to pay an apprentice wizard's or cleric's way through the academy of whateveritis if he'll make you two scrolls a week. The upside of people trying to kill you all the time is that, as long as they fail and you kill them, there should be a steady stream of loot to support standard adventurer addictions like wands of cure light wounds, scrolls of remove paralysis, scrolls of haste, etc.

There are a few other questions that come to mind though:

1. How are these characters constructed? For instance, if anyone has 8 con, that's probably why they're dying.

2. What kind of items do they have? If you don't have cloaks or vests of resistance (my recommendation is always have the best one you can afford), you're going to fail a lot more saves.

And one last suggestion: if none of this works, you could always take a page from Neverwinter Nights. If the DM gives you some broken items, you have much less risk of dying. Maybe the Rogue's Charm allows you to cheat fate three times and the next three saving throws that would otherwise kill you are succeeded. Or maybe it just grants immunity to mind-effecting spells. Too powerful? Certainly it would be for most games. But if the standard game balance isn't working for you, don't be afraid to upset it.

 

[halfjack]

Sure you can. At 12th level, it takes two second level spells for one stat buff to last all day. A lesser metamagic rod of extend spell lets one spell last all day. So, spend all day buffed.

How would you price that? It looks extremely powerful so I hope the answer is "highly".

1. How are these characters constructed? For instance, if anyone has 8 con, that's probably why they're dying.

They all have decent con, so tons of hit points. The problem is more the save versus die effect, not damage handling.

2. What kind of items do they have? If you don't have cloaks or vests of resistance (my recommendation is always have the best one you can afford), you're going to fail a lot more saves.

Ironically, they had cloaks of acid resistance but have been loathe to wear them because they are made from human skins. Bunch of babies. I think they'll be on full time from now on and to hell with the stares.