Do you design worlds according to fantastical physics?

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Something I dislike about typical modern fantasy world building is that it basically tacks magic onto a world that otherwise operates according to real physics. I don’t think that is holistic, since the pre-modern societies that laid the foundation for the fantasy genre didn’t think that way.

Well, here's the thing - those pre-modern societies didn't think that way... but they were also *very wrong* about what was actually happening in the world. And, since they were wrong, you quickly find that if you follow their lines of reasoning for any distance, they become self-inconsistent.

I'm a physicist by training. Putting together a world that runs on fundamentally different physics, but has the characteristics you see in the real world (like gravity, and light, and such) is very, very, very hard. I don't recommend it.
 

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Satyrn

First Post
Putting together a world that runs on fundamentally different physics, but has the characteristics you see in the real world (like gravity, and light, and such) is very, very, very hard. I don't recommend it.
Aye.

I'd much rather my DM put that time and effort toward stocking the dungeon.
 

5ekyu

Hero
To a degree yes.

My current world is a floating fragment of a destryed world surrounded by a shadowy life hungry maelstrom of things foul and undead. Its sustained by The Shimmer - a glowing motes magic force that is everywhere.

The default lighting is dim light. One hour of one dsy is called Songs and it gets bright and you hear music and singing and magic is more wild. One day a month is the day of screamers, it gets pitch black, lotsa more undead come out. Dark magics get eild. Screams in the night.

You see badlands and glooms where the ewuilibrium between shimmer and shadow has broken one way or the other.
 

S'mon

Legend
Aye.

I'd much rather my DM put that time and effort toward stocking the dungeon.

Conversely I just spent a lot of time resolving some of the physics of the geography in my prehistoric Primeval Thule game to my scientific satisfaction - how Thulean North/South works and is 90 degrees off modern understanding, how the Long Night (ie Arctic winter) works in 'eastern' (actually Northern) Thule, how the sun rises (if it rises) in the SW and sets in the NW... And of course the Demon Fires (Aurora Borealis) that burn over the Boreal Sea (Arctic Ocean) as the Gods battle the forces of the Outer Dark...

I felt for this setting it was important to take a strongly Modernist approach of being able to explain stuff with Science! And this has had some great results in enriching the setting for me so it feels worthwhile.
 

Satyrn

First Post
Conversely I just spent a lot of time resolving some of the physics of the geography in my prehistoric Primeval Thule game to my scientific satisfaction - how Thulean North/South works and is 90 degrees off modern understanding, how the Long Night (ie Arctic winter) works in 'eastern' (actually Northern) Thule, how the sun rises (if it rises) in the SW and sets in the NW... And of course the Demon Fires (Aurora Borealis) that burn over the Boreal Sea (Arctic Ocean) as the Gods battle the forces of the Outer Dark...

I felt for this setting it was important to take a strongly Modernist approach of being able to explain stuff with Science! And this has had some great results in enriching the setting for me so it feels worthwhile.

. . . I really want to jokingly say "whatever floats your boat" but I don't know if boats even float in this brave new Thule of yours :heh:
 

S'mon

Legend
. . . I really want to jokingly say "whatever floats your boat" but I don't know if boats even float in this brave new Thule of yours :heh:

Boats float... the whole point was to reconcile the fantastic nature of Thule with its 'real world' location as prehistoric Greenland.
 

VelvetViolet

Adventurer
I prefer world-building that is "like reality, except where noted". If you have something about the world which works differently, because the fundamental difference is important to what the players are dealing with (such as functional magic, or other planes of existence), then that's great. If you have something about the world which works differently, because you want the world to seem less like our own reality, then that's just gratuitous.

The further I need to suspend my disbelief in order to buy into the story, the less willing I am to do so. If you get so far out there that gravity and light begin to work differently, then you've lost me. It would be difficult for me to relate to anything that takes place in such a setting. There are plenty of other worlds for me to explore, which don't ask for such a significant buy-in.

I prefer to use fantastical physics because they make more sense when fantastical things exist as part of the world. For example, it makes zero sense for there to be elemental beings and planes based on the four classical elements if the world is composed of the periodic elements. That’s what I loved about the Nephilim game, since it ascribed elemental associations to absolutely everything, even inventing new elements like Sun, Moon and Orichalcum to explain gaps.

But I understand your complaint regarding getting lost. So I keep this stuff under the hood, so to speak. My fantasy world building outwardly resembles the world as experienced by you or me, even if the underlying physics are completely different. It only comes up when I want to do things that aren’t possible in “lazy” worlds, particularly regarding spirituality.

It would take a while to explain, but at the moment probably the most visible departures I took from reality are magical fields (a la Nephilim, Warhammer), a hierarchy of gods/spirits who manage every aspect of natural cycles (a la Exalted), and by extension treating illnesses as spirits (a la Glorantha). To put it together, the magical fields give rise to the world and its spirits/gods, and the interactions of those spirits/gods cause the natural cycles. Rain, for example, is caused by thunder dragons straight out of Chinese myth.

This creates new avenues for characters to interact with the world. If a villain wanted to, they could cause a drought by killing the local rain dragon or river god. Thus setting in motion a quest to find a new spirit/god to replace it. To me, that feels more like mythology and folklore than the overwhelming majority of published adventure paths.

Initially I was inspired by this old article: http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html

Well, here's the thing - those pre-modern societies didn't think that way... but they were also *very wrong* about what was actually happening in the world. And, since they were wrong, you quickly find that if you follow their lines of reasoning for any distance, they become self-inconsistent.

I'm a physicist by training. Putting together a world that runs on fundamentally different physics, but has the characteristics you see in the real world (like gravity, and light, and such) is very, very, very hard. I don't recommend it.
I agree with you. So I generally only address the stuff that would relevant to gameplay or world building (as I use a similar approach in my fantasy prose writing). There are a few aspects of this to unpack and address.

Firstly, even the standard generic fantasy setting is inherently implausible. No ecosystem could ever support a menagerie of such destructive monsters. So rather than positing some kind of nonsensical ecology, I use magical physics as a literal god of the gaps. As a matter of fact I’m developing an entire pantheon of literal gods of the gaps (which is really the only reason I personally see to have gods around at all). For example, there is a god of evolution and a god of spontaneous generation; the latter gets ideas from the former, explaining why animals which were spontaneously generated resemble animals which evolved in reality. Animals which don’t follow the evolution god’s suggestions account for the various chimerical creatures roaming around, like owlbears, griffins, platypuses and the sharktopus.

Secondly, positing fantastical underpinnings of a world makes you engage differently with that world. You build it that much more fantastically. The idea that the heart is the seat of emotion dates back to Ancient Egypt and is still a common metaphor today, and making it literal doesn’t make a difference except in the case of things like stealing or freezing the heart. A person whose heart was stolen would, for example, be unreceptive to emotional manipulation. One might imagine an army composed of fearless soldiers whose hearts were made of bronze to exploit this. Fantastical symbolism is awesome like that, and I’m constantly disappointed more fantasy authors don’t do that.

Thirdly, when I take obsolete scientific theories from our own history and apply them to a fantasy context, I do take care to sanitize them if necessary. Some instances are... really politically incorrect?

To use a vulgar example, the ancient world had some very sexist ideas regarding the purpose and generation of semen. The feeling of tiredness after sex and the ejaculation itself were conflated into the mistaken belief that every ejaculation was hemorrhaging a man’s lifeforce (which some people still believe to this day); this is where the demonization of masturbation originates from and the idea that succubi steal life force comes from (i.e. succubi don’t have a special ability to steal vitality, this is a flaw of man; explaining why incubi don’t do the same to women). BTW, women were considered to contribute nothing to their offspring, although obviously this wasn’t consistently adhered to as shown by the existence of political marriage. Of course in reality we now know that masturbation is healthy and flushes out deformed sperm. A magical explanation would, for example, be that the prostate semen has a distinct pool of life force, one that rots due to its sluggish connection to the heart’s circulation of life force (in Ancient Egyptian thought, the heart circulated ALL bodily fluids).

Tying back into my “illnesses as spirit possession” mentioned above, I likewise reject the ancient world’s widespread belief that illnesses were punishments for immorality. Even if illnesses are caused by spiritual possession disrupting the subject’s humors, those spirits are as amoral as any real pathogen. Tree spirits have inscrutable plant thoughts and even the most convincing argument for peace will not sway a war spirit. BTW, this means that there isn’t a distinction between mumdane and magical means of healing, as both would involve spirit combat. (Thank Glorantha for that.)

Fourthly, I dislike the real physics with magic tacked on argument because it is used to keep fighters from getting nice things like the tome of weaboo fighting magic. If a zero-level peasant can cast the evil eye without conscious action as in real world folklore (known in anthropology as a subset of “magical thinking”), then it becomes that much easier to believe fighters can become weaboo fighting magic-users just by training really hard. The underlying magical thinking also ties more generally into the underlying animistic cosmology I adopted.

As always, your mileage may vary.
 

Argyle King

Legend
Kinda...

If a fantasy world contains an element which is obviously drastically different than our world, I feel it makes sense to address that via how the people in that world live. In many cases, it's easy enough to handwave small things, but -for example- if a world contains common magic items which mimic modern technology, the society in which those items exist will likely look a little more like today's world than some version of medieval Europe.

Similarly, if some unusual race or creature is a common part of the world, the world will likely reflect that. Asking a few simple questions can reveal interesting answers from which to world build. An example of that would be the Banestorm setting attempting to answer how certain Earth religions might view the existence of other sentient races. (Do Orcs have a soul?)

The answers needn't be perfect nor some manner of basis for a college thesis, but I think -at the very least- it makes sense that the world-building process has at least some acknowledgement of differences.
 

I prefer to use fantastical physics because they make more sense when fantastical things exist as part of the world. For example, it makes zero sense for there to be elemental beings and planes based on the four classical elements if the world is composed of the periodic elements.
I can certainly imagine such a world. Maybe it's the Star Trek influence, but alternate dimensions don't really phase me much. A world with periodic elements isn't necessarily inconsistent with elemental planes, as long as those elemental planes are far-removed from the material plane and only accessible through magic.
This creates new avenues for characters to interact with the world. If a villain wanted to, they could cause a drought by killing the local rain dragon or river god. Thus setting in motion a quest to find a new spirit/god to replace it. To me, that feels more like mythology and folklore than the overwhelming majority of published adventure paths.
I don't disagree. The difference is that I have zero interest in playing out mythology or folklore. I find mythology and folklore to be inherently silly, except as an odd cultural note.

"What if mythology X was real?" is not an interesting question that I want to explore. Mythology X was poorly-conceived, by people who had no idea of how things actually worked. Give me an internally-consistent world that operates on believable scientific principles, and I'll happily explore that instead.

Edit: One way to make mythology less silly is to take one or two elements from that mythology and transplant them into a believable setting. "What if greek mythology was all true?" is a silly question, because if it was true, then nothing in the world would make any sense. A much more interesting question is, "what if the greek gods and monsters actually existed, in a way that's consistent with the real world?" That way, you can address those fantastic elements within a context that actually makes sense, and the basis in reality makes the exploration of those elements much more meaningful.
 
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I

Immortal Sun

Guest
I think people largely overestimate the value of "fantastical physics", from a DM perspective, it can be fun and engaging to try to think of how everything could work, but after a while, you start to realize that a lot of how the world could work is pretty much how the world does work.

Disease caused by spirits? When it is one or two diseases that are relevant to the story, this is creative an interesting. Perhaps the Great City was once ruled by another people, who were besieged by the current rulers. The current rulers uleashed a magical plague upon the denizens and they all died, thus why the current rulers are well, the rulers. Now the vengeful spirits are back, bringing with them the magical plague to infest the descendants of their conquerors. THAT is interesting, fun and creative, but when you start analyzing a world-wide concept of disease caused by spirits, it starts to become mundane.

At first, it's the Big Diseases, that's still kinda interesting. But suddenly the flu, or the sniffles, or the common cold are all now spirits, and functionally you haven't really changed anything. "Germs" are replaced by "spirits" and instead of being cured by medicine, they're cured by spells (though lets be honest even germ-based disease is cured by magic in most parties). Maybe the "big deal" of this approach is that you can reason with a spirit, but then really the outcome is the doctors are replaced by spirit-speakers and "Medicine" checks are replaced by "Diplomacy" checks.

People aren't inherently stupid. Most of the historical stupidity we European-descended folks who make RPGs was perpetuated by historical authorities through suppression of education, destruction of literature and execution of the intelligent. The problem we in the West here have is that we don't have a recent or ancestral tribal history to draw upon for an alternative approach to things. We apply a regression back to about the dark ages and then kind of generally assume people got dumber from thereon back. Even in highly animist cultures where "a spirit did it" may very well be the answer to a question, it wasn't left there. There was an answer for how you could go about dealing with that spirit and many of those approached involved basically primitive medicine. Without an overarching authority to reinforce the idea that you are helpless and removing those who would counter that idea, even "primitive" people are capable of understanding problems and developing measures to counter them.

What I find, even in reading this thread, is that it doesn't really sound like these "mytholog" DMs are "letting players in" on the secret that this world works different...until the players attempt to resolve a situation using their common sense, only to discover the world is incredibly nonsensical. Which strikes me a silly because the characters would know this already. It's sort of like a gaming jump scare. HA HA! Oh I got you good! Oh wait you tried the thing it doesn't work like that! Haha! Got you again! A player may not know which spirit is causing this disease in question (unless they're trained in Heal, then I'd say they might) but they would have a general understanding that spirits cause disease.

Ultimately, you end up with two types of players:
A: Players who just say "screw it" and stop caring about the world. Their approach becomes jaded and cynical, they assume they cannot understand the world because it is designed in a way to impede their attempts at understanding. So when a situation comes up they stop caring.
B: You get players who try to be scientific about the world, attempting to understand ever element, but you've designed a world that belies understanding. Sure, a giant may throw the sun into the sky every day but when either of them get asked "why" the whole system breaks down. EX: who held up the sky before Atlas? Anyone? Anyone? That's right: there's no answer. Why? Because Atlas was a story designed to teach a lesson. If you start to analyze the situation it breaks down. It doesn't operate on a logical basis.
-You may say: why is that a problem? Because we do. And when Player B can't sit down and start to figure things out, they eventually become Player A.
 

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