Do you let your clerics have all the spells?

[Voadam]

I disagree with the notion that limited spell selection equals balance for a cleric. The balance factor comes from the fact that the cleric can only pre-select so many spells per day. As long as all the new spells themselves are appropriately balanced for their spell level, then who cares if the cleric list is 100 spells or 1,000,000 spells?

As a DM, you should of course ban spells that are clearly unbalanced for their level. Heal should not be a 1st level clerical spell of course. But if a WotC product introduces more spells comparable to Heal, but have the same level as Heal, what is the big deal?

The big deal is when they do new things that are balanced but could not be done under core rules. Divinations that reveal more types of information for example. If every cleric can do them that has plot implications. Reveal cause of death may be a reasonable first level spell but it would give substantively different powers to clerics of the world and has implications for running murder mystery type of games.

Clerics can't do everything that would be balanced for their power level. Give them a big enough spell list and they can. Plus the DM should be aware of class powers for adjudicating the PCs actions and creating a reasonable and enjoyable scenario. Ever expanding full access means considering an ever more huge array of powers that any cleric can do in a day. A sorcerer knows a finite number of spells. Compare how many spells a 20th level sorcerer knows compared to the 0th and 1st level cleric lists. Given enough of a list expansion it can be easier to keep a handle on the 20th level caster PC's known spells than the list of choices that can change daily for a 1st level cleric.

 

[Joël of the FoS]

Unless the book has the words "Core Rulebook" slapped on its cover, I see it as a big book of optional rules. If players want something new added in, that's fine, but it has to be looked over first. And not five minutes before game!

That's how we do it too: everything from WotC is possible, but this has to be approuved by the DM first, who should at least be given a photocopy/scan from this page of the actual book to study at home.

No way a decision will be made on an Internet summary. I need to read the whole spell, with the limitations often added to the spell description.

And indeed, not 5 minutes before a game! That's not fair to the DM. I have a little sign behind my DM screens with only a large "no" written on it. When I show it to them, which is rare, they know it's my final word and they won't win this one.

We often discussions by group emails on these matters - news spells, new feats, PrCs, etc. Everybody can gives their opinion, and the DM has the final word after a few days of online email exchange.

And honestly, I do think that clerics should be more focused toward buffing/healing. Otherwise they're just wizards who use gods instead of spellbooks.

I disagree completely. If it fits your god's ethics and values, go for it. Otherwise to limit them at healing isn't fair when they meet NPCs priest of God of War XYZ who throws at them battle spells.

And do not forget it will balance itself in the end: more battle spells, less cures for the rest of the party.

Joël

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Some of you have heard of this before, but this is how I handle Clerics.

They must choose 2 lesser and one primary domain. (Usually this is in direct relation to their diety, and all deities have 2 primary and 3 or more lesser domains)

They may cast spells level 0-3 from all domains.
They may cast spells level 0-6 from ONLY thier lesser domains.
They may cast spells of 0-9 ONLY from within their primary domains.

However, there are certain spells who have the "general" domain descriptor.

So far, it hasn't really bothered the players.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I usually ask them how did the thought for all those new spells come to their character?

As every other day, they prayed for guidance, and today they found that their gods grants those spells, too.

Clerics don't need to keep prayer books or anything like that. They receive divine power directly from their patron. They get what their patron gives them, no more, no less.

 

[hackmastergeneral]

Exactly.

Having Clerics study spells and lost knowledge doesn't really mesh with the "their god gives them X power". If the god wants them to have access to this power, then the god will give it to them. If not, they won't. Theres no "lost divine knowledge" when your god knows what you want and what you need. Your god isn't going to have lost track of some spells his worshippers used 1000 years ago. Its a GOD.

I agree, any extra spells should be looked at, but, if Ilmater and Lathander allow their clerics access to Animate Dead (as its on the basic cleric spell list), then why should they be out of hand disallowed extra spells because it "doesn't fit in with their gods ethos?"

I like the idea of cleric spell lists tailored to each god, but thats more work than I really care to do. We run primarily Forgotten Realms. Course, there are gods whose usage is far more common than others.

Still a LOT of work, though. If the player wants to go through 10 books of spells, let him/her do the work. I've never had a problem with balance from the major books (core + spell compendium is the usual - are the FR spells included in the SC?).

 

[wayne62682]

I let them have all of them as soon as a new book comes out (provided said book is approved for the campaign). I also allow Wizards/Sorcerers to start picking spells from the books when they get the opportunity. That's how the rule is intended to work, and I see no problem with it at all.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I agree, any extra spells should be looked at, but, if Ilmater and Lathander allow their clerics access to Animate Dead (as its on the basic cleric spell list)

They won't grant these spells due to alignment restrictions ([Evil] spells can't be cast by good clerics or clerics of good deities).

then why should they be out of hand disallowed extra spells because it "doesn't fit in with their gods ethos?"

As I we said: Because they're gods. They're slaves to their own portfolio, despite all the power they have.

I won't complain if the DM disallows spells on those grounds. But that assumes that the DM won't be overly pedantic about this: Of course, spells that are directly against what the god stands for are right out (Lathander won't ever grant [Darkness] spells, but that means that he doesn't grant but [Light] spells. He won't grant [Evil], but the spells need not be [Good].

Some general stuff is quite okay, and generally, a bit of leniency about what is considered the forte of this god is okay, too.

It's just stuff that is the antithesis to the deity's portfolio.

I like the idea of cleric spell lists tailored to each god, but thats more work than I really care to do. We run primarily Forgotten Realms. Course, there are gods whose usage is far more common than others.

So, to use the Priest of Ilmater example:
His forte will be healing, protection, especially spells like shield other.
But stuff like divine power is okay, as you could say defending the weak and defeating the wicked will mean less suffering to the people, and since you are likely to get hurt in a fight, it is, in a sense, a transfer of suffering.
Wind Walk is okay, too. It's not Ilmater's area of influence, but he's not against it, either.

Symbol of Pain is right out.
Wrack is right out.
"Invocation of the Dread Mother" or stuff like that is right out, too.

 

[schporto]

I let them have all of them as soon as a new book comes out (provided said book is approved for the campaign). I also allow Wizards/Sorcerers to start picking spells from the books when they get the opportunity. That's how the rule is intended to work, and I see no problem with it at all.

Do you also say that the wizards now have all the 0th level spells from those books? "A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells." Honestly I'm kinda curious. Not doing this seems, unfair. I mean the cleric suddenly gets access to all those new spells and the wizard should start with all 0th level spells, so shouldn't he?

Right now my method is that we have defined what we play with at the begining of a campaign. That is stone and cannot change except in rare cases. And I mean really rare. I think once so far (level 12), and those are individual things.
-cpd

 

[wayne62682]

Do you also say that the wizards now have all the 0th level spells from those books? "A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells." Honestly I'm kinda curious. Not doing this seems, unfair. I mean the cleric suddenly gets access to all those new spells and the wizard should start with all 0th level spells, so shouldn't he?

Correct. Wizards have access to all 0th level spells from allowed books as well, and can freely spend the funds to learn spells in them when allowed. In effect, I use the view that they were always there, just that the PCs weren't aware of it at the time. A little contrived, maybe, but as both a player and a GM I like the freedom of choice.

 

[danzig138]

Sorry about the ranting, but how do you deal with new cleric spells?

Before my hard drive wiped out, I just added them to the appropriate spell lists. One spell list for each deity. Now, well, it isn't an issue, since I haven't run a D&D game since my HD crashed. I don't really see it as a problem. One of the perks of playing a cleric.