Do you let your clerics have all the spells?

[Crothian]

I, on the other hand, have to do that for every single NPC. Except that instead of weeks and months of learning how the NPC works, I get a few minutes (hours if I have the time to do enough prep).

Only if this is your first time runnning D&D. It has been 6 years since thir5d edition started, plenty of time to cover all the base classes and most of their options. And let's face it 90% of the options are crap for NPCs. It really looks harder then it is.

 

[Kwitchit]

Heh. And suddenly running NPCs becomes ten times harder!

My problem when running a fight is that the PCs spend hours with their own, single character. They know them inside and out. They know every spell, every feat and every item on their character sheet, and how it works. Even better, they know how best to use them.

I, on the other hand, have to do that for every single NPC. Except that instead of weeks and months of learning how the NPC works, I get a few minutes (hours if I have the time to do enough prep).

Using the core rules plus some approved others makes that challenging at higher levels, but not impossible. Doing it with hundreds and hundreds of spells, items, feats, abilities, classes, etc. suddenly makes it too hard for me.

I admire anyone who can deal with that well. I know I can't. In that situation, my NPCs don't use their abilities properly.

So, simply for the sake of a smooth, challenging game, I have to approve non-core stuff on an item-by-item basis, whether that be spells, classes, feats, items, whatever.

Maybe I'm just not quick-minded enough.

You're forgetting one thing (or else your games are different from mine). The PCs' normal adversaries (IMC at least) are monsters and fighting NPCs. Most spellcasting opponents are BBEGs. As such, I have more time to prepare them and they "use their abilities properly"

Building a BBEG, to me, requires almost as much work as building a PC (possibly more, as I also have to equip them). Thus, my BBEGs are as twinked as the PCs.

 

[Bardsandsages]

If it isn't in the PHB, then it has to be approved. Hell, I don't even allow spells from products I'VE PUBLISHED in my existing campaigns without good reason.

me: "When exactly did your cleric of Illmater learn "Invoke the Dread Mother" anyway?"

PC: "But it's in your Neiyar campaign and the spells are OGL so I can use it, right?"

me: "When exactly did your cleric OF ILMATER learn "Invoke the Dread Mother"?"

PC: "But it will give me a combat form so I'm more effective in combat."

me: "YOU ARE A CLERIC OF ILMATER!"

PC: "But martyrs should still be able to fight."

me: "You want to fight, take levels of fighter."

PC: "But then I won't get access to higher level spells."

me: *bang head on table repeatedly* "Your martyr was just devoured by a Tarrasaque. Roll a new character."

If a player brings me a spell they have seen somewhere, or even one they came up with, I'll review it and possibly either work it into the game as a quest or allow them to research it.

 

[Arnwyn]

Sorry about the ranting, but how do you deal with new cleric spells?

For our campaign: PHB only. Any spells from outside the PHB must be learned by the PC at one of their temples or by a friendly allied cleric - and only for a "price" (whether it's monetary, completion of a job, etc).

Works for us. ("Official" is entirely irrelevant, as we would require a definition of "official", and a full detailed explanation and justification as to why "official" has some sort of meaning that we should adhere to.)

 

[Kae'Yoss]

me: "YOU ARE A CLERIC OF ILMATER!"

PC: "But martyrs should still be able to fight."

me: "You want to fight, take levels of fighter."

So a Monk of the Yellow Rose or one of the Broken Order (both, if I recall correctly, Ilmataran orders), aren't allowed to fight, either?

No clerics in your campaign aren't supposed to enter the fray, unless they're dragging the wounded out to be healed?

If someone would be that extreme to me, I'd run laughing into that Terrasque.

I can understand when you don't approve of a Martyred Champion casting Ebbi's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, but fighting for the people means getting hurt. Experiencing pain. It also means that the innocent will not have to fight, and consiquently not getting hurt. There's many ways to be a martyr, to suffer for people, and fighting for them is one of them.

You just don't make others suffer needlessly. You aim for incapacitation, or for killing quickly and rather painlessly. That means no Dread Mothers, Elder Ones, Nyarlies, Spiked Tentacles, Symbols of Pain, Using their teeth to play piano, painting elaborate patterns on their skin with a scalpel, or showing them music videos from Tokyo Hotel.

 

[Shallown]

In my present campaign I have individual spell list for each God. I used the PHB and Spell compendium only.

The spell list are not common knowledge and It really allowed me to custom fit and make the dieties portfolio and domains really stand out.

I give a Player thier spell list when the play a cleric and only theat God's spell list.

I liked being able to draw off every spell list to make them work. Higher level stuff was the hardest since I tended to stear away from alignment driven spells except for a few Gods who strove to represent that alignment.

It has made thinsg interesting especially when a caster in armor is throwing Fireballs at you it may take a minute to relaize he worships the god of the sun and fire. Admitted that clerics spell list does not have every fire spell just the most common so I don't step on the toes of other classes.

So far it was worked out fine.

later

 

[Ibram]

Early on in the days of 3rd I allowed clerics to use spells from any WotC product. At first that was allright, but as time went on clerics became more powerful by leaps and bounds. New books brought a host of new spells. After that I restricted clerics to the PHB only, with access to outside spells through scrolls (or training) provided in game.

 

[Dragonblade]

I disagree with the notion that limited spell selection equals balance for a cleric. The balance factor comes from the fact that the cleric can only pre-select so many spells per day. As long as all the new spells themselves are appropriately balanced for their spell level, then who cares if the cleric list is 100 spells or 1,000,000 spells?

As a DM, you should of course ban spells that are clearly unbalanced for their level. Heal should not be a 1st level clerical spell of course. But if a WotC product introduces more spells comparable to Heal, but have the same level as Heal, what is the big deal?

 

[SkidAce]

I usually ask them how did the thought for all those new spells come to their character? Perhaps you saw an NPC cast it and were inspired?

If they can explain how and why then the spells get added to their list. If they say I found them in this (non-PHB) book and and thought my character would just instantly know them for no reason, they get nothing.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I disagree with the notion that limited spell selection equals balance for a cleric. The balance factor comes from the fact that the cleric can only pre-select so many spells per day. As long as all the new spells themselves are appropriately balanced for their spell level, then who cares if the cleric list is 100 spells or 1,000,000 spells?

As a DM, you should of course ban spells that are clearly unbalanced for their level. Heal should not be a 1st level clerical spell of course. But if a WotC product introduces more spells comparable to Heal, but have the same level as Heal, what is the big deal?

By that logic, should the Wizard automatically add any spells that are comparable to Fireball, but the same level as Fireball because WotC release a new sourcebook? If not, then why should Clerics?

I think the big deal is that with each new book of spells the Cleric becomes more flexible in his spell casting so that he is more likely to have the right spell for any particular circumstance. This increased flexibility makes him a more effective spellcaster and therefore a stronger character. The Cleric is already strong enough without giving him more stuff for free.

I also think that it is unfair that the Cleric gets to benefit from all of these spells all of a sudden in one big hit while the Wizard has to go out and find these new spells if he wants them.

Olaf the Stout