D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, that is a good point, as soon as everyone understands each other automatically through common, isn't really much of a stretch to assume a general similarity with commoners.
And in some respects my distaste for that scene in Wizards First Rule is around the fact that their culture is so different, but it hadn't really been suggested before that that there would be such differences, and it seemed an absurd difference, and especially so when it happened to work in the protagonists favor (probably the closest fit I've seen for a Mary Sue / Gary Stu).

This is one reason (the more important being general verisimilitude) that I don't use "Common". Different cultures mean different languages.

 

[Lanefan]

Yes, this would be ridiculous in the real world--that commoners are commoners the world around--

And it would be ridiculous - in a well-designed D&D setting with decent rules. Not my fault 5e gives us neither; so I have my own setting.

but don't forget: This is D&D, where all members of a species (except for humans, but only in some settings) speak the same language and have the same culture and "usually" have the same alignment--and if they don't, they get a different statblock.

True; though the alignment is merely a tendency and the different statblock is to reflect actual measurable differences between the species. Humans speak many different laugnages; Elves a few.

Where everyone can read and write with equal proficiency

Nope. Not even all PCs are literate; except Mages, where it's automatic (otherwise how could they read their spellbooks).

and everyone knows Common.

Nope. Most non-adventuring NPCs don't, and not all PCs do either, if the player chooses such or if the character only knows its native language (which can never be Common).

As I pointed out, these features are super-niche. In one of my games, I think I've used my feature once, and that character is 8th level. She has the Courtier background and we've actually spent a lot of time dealing with bureaucracies, which is literally what my background is all about. I just haven't needed to use it. So because these features are so niche and so rarely used, why not let them be used and give the player a chance to shine?

Until recently I had a sailor character in my game, and his being a sailor came up constantly while the party was on the coast. A few sessions ago it was relevant whether the party had a leatherworker in its ranks (they didn't) to make little booties for their sled dogs. And so on.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Welp back to using spells. On Tiny Hut coming up. No fuss no muss no mess. Poof. Instant success.

So now we are going from singling "come and get it out" to singling "tiny hut" out.
Both powers/spells are indeed problematic. But last time you complained that people always take 1 out of 400 powers to show how terrible 4e is. No you are not doing it better.

Gee and one wonders why players ignore backgrounds.

Non sequitur.

/edit. Whoops. Wrong quote. Use the one where @Lanefan talks about backgrounds. On phone. Can’t fix.

 

[James Gasik]

This is one reason (the more important being general verisimilitude) that I don't use "Common". Different cultures mean different languages.

D&D has rarely handled languages well. In some campaigns, you have multiple languages for the same species- maybe there's a High Elvish or an Old Common (Ed Greenwood's Thorassic Script, which shows up in old ruins). Perhaps there's a High Common reserved for court and diplomatic functions as part of tradition.

I mean we have Undercommon, so the idea of another lingua franca isn't ridiculous. Asian-inspired settings often simply call these Trade Languages (which is what they are, certainly). In my games, Drow typically have to know three languages (Undercommon, Elvish (it's true there are linguistic changes from what the other Elves speak, but I figure Drow and surface Elves can communicate with one another), and Drow Sign Language (jokingly called DSL by some of my players). And many know Common as well!

Sometimes D&D gets pretty deep into this, and characters might find that they don't have enough languages to cover their needs. Other times, knowing how to speak, say, Celestial, may never come up at all. And that's not getting into "secret" languages like Cant, Druidic, or Lawful Neutral.

I've never really known how to handle this. I could easily give my D&D games a bewildering array of languages (ie, closer to the real world) or even "six million forms of communication", but I have doubts that the juice would be worth the squeeze.

I've played a few adventures where you encounter "an unknown language" and it's supposed to be this big deal, but generally either the adventure provides the means for you to learn how to read/speak it, or the DM just sighs when the players use spells, magic items, or conjured Word Archons to handle it for them (which happened in the Midgard game I'm playing in- but by the end of the adventure we also found a Helm of Comprehending Languages anyways).

So maybe less is more. I've played on both ends of the spectrum and while it's a cool moment when you say "hey, I speak X!", it's not one that typically lasts very long or remains memorable.

 

[Hussar]

So now we are going from singling "come and get it out" to singling "tiny hut" out.
Both powers/spells are indeed problematic. But last time you complained that people always take 1 out of 400 powers to show how terrible 4e is. No you are not doing it better.

Non sequitur.

Seriously? You ignore the fifteen spells I listed beforehand to focus on this one?

Lessee then:

Need to travel? Who cares about sailor background, I’ve got teleport.

Need to rest? I’ve got rope trick, tiny hut, my genie warlock comes with a magic house, I’m sure there’s more.

Need to talk? Backgrounds give languages, but I’ve got Tongues, speak with animals and plants, and a number of ways to get telepathy. Hell my GOO warlock can speak every language in the universe telepathically.

Need to climb? Why bother with skills when there’s a dozen different spells that will do it better?

Need information? Why bother with that Sage nackground when I’ve got a shopping list of info gathering spells.

Need to contact someone? Why bother with a background when I’ve got Sending?

On and on and on.

But sure. Thanks for playing. At least I can actually point to dozens of examples in 5e. Unlike the average edition warrior who can point to Come and Get It and…. Nothing else because there actually isn’t anything else.

 

[CreamCloud0]

D&D has rarely handled languages well. In some campaigns, you have multiple languages for the same species- maybe there's a High Elvish or an Old Common (Ed Greenwood's Thorassic Script, which shows up in old ruins). Perhaps there's a High Common reserved for court and diplomatic functions as part of tradition.

I mean we have Undercommon, so the idea of another lingua franca isn't ridiculous. Asian-inspired settings often simply call these Trade Languages (which is what they are, certainly). In my games, Drow typically have to know three languages (Undercommon, Elvish (it's true there are linguistic changes from what the other Elves speak, but I figure Drow and surface Elves can communicate with one another), and Drow Sign Language (jokingly called DSL by some of my players). And many know Common as well!

Sometimes D&D gets pretty deep into this, and characters might find that they don't have enough languages to cover their needs. Other times, knowing how to speak, say, Celestial, may never come up at all. And that's not getting into "secret" languages like Cant, Druidic, or Lawful Neutral.

I've never really known how to handle this. I could easily give my D&D games a bewildering array of languages (ie, closer to the real world) or even "six million forms of communication", but I have doubts that the juice would be worth the squeeze.

I've played a few adventures where you encounter "an unknown language" and it's supposed to be this big deal, but generally either the adventure provides the means for you to learn how to read/speak it, or the DM just sighs when the players use spells, magic items, or conjured Word Archons to handle it for them (which happened in the Midgard game I'm playing in- but by the end of the adventure we also found a Helm of Comprehending Languages anyways).

So maybe less is more. I've played on both ends of the spectrum and while it's a cool moment when you say "hey, I speak X!", it's not one that typically lasts very long or remains memorable.

a thought i've had before is that rather than species languages being the primary way of handling language bonuses have a handfull of more catch-all practical languages, high-tongue for nobles, barter being a trade language for merchants, adapt thieves cant as the criminal language, military for guards and knights, and so forth, they're not 'pure' languages per se but it represents knowing how to speak the lingo, common works for pure communication but it nerfs your charisma impact (meaning it may be more beneficial for a low CHA fighter who knows military to talk to a guard than a high CHA bard who doesn't have a relevant language), meanwhile species languages give the same bonuses and trancend the spectrum of social class rank but it's hit-or-miss if any given person will be of the apropriate species to apply the bonuses, you might even double up on bonuses if you speak both a species and social language (draconic and military) when speaking to an apropriate target (a dragonborn guard)

 

[James Gasik]

a thought i've had before is that rather than species languages being the primary way of handling language bonuses have a handfull of more catch-all practical languages, high-tongue for nobles, barter being a trade language for merchants, adapt thieves cant as the criminal language, military for guards and knights, and so forth, they're not 'pure' languages per se but it represents knowing how to speak the lingo, common works for pure communication but it nerfs your charisma impact (meaning it may be more beneficial for a low CHA fighter who knows military to talk to a guard than a high CHA bard who doesn't have a relevant language), meanwhile species languages give the same bonuses and trancend the spectrum of social class rank but it's hit-or-miss if any given person will be of the apropriate species to apply the bonuses, you might even double up on bonuses if you speak both a species and social language (draconic and military) when speaking to an apropriate target (a dragonborn guard)

Certainly this makes sense, but again, it's something that only occasionally comes up, so I'm not sure it's worth doing. Unless you're running a game with a lot of NPC interaction and intrigue, of course. I assume most D&D games will be mostly about murdering hostile monsters so viewed from that lens, languages are mostly ways for me to interject some flavor into the proceedings "oh hey, the command word for this wand is a word in the Grell language. I didn't know Grell had a language!"

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Seriously? You ignore the fifteen spells I listed beforehand to focus on this one?

Wasn't in this post. But yeah. Ignoring everything else is the usual tactic, right?

Come and get it is not the only problematic power in 4e either.

 

[Hussar]

Wasn't in this post. But yeah. Ignoring everything else is the usual tactic, right?

Come and get it is not the only problematic power in 4e either.

And yet, funnily enough, no one can ever seem to name any others. There are exactly FOUR CaGI style powers in the 4e PHB. That's it. That's the total. Out of several hundred powers, there are four that cannot be easily explained as martial powers.

So, what am I ignoring?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And yet, funnily enough, no one can ever seem to name any others. There are exactly FOUR CaGI style powers in the 4e PHB. That's it. That's the total. Out of several hundred powers, there are four that cannot be easily explained as martial powers.

So, what am I ignoring?

For me: Every single power that slides or allows you to shift. Totally annoying. It starts with people getting defensive and ignoring everything else that does not work well for other people in 4e.