D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

[AnotherGuy]

One of the main beauty's of 5e is its progression AND influence from the last 3 editions

• Advantage/Disadvantage is a simpler mechanic than the myriads of + and - from 3.x;
• Bounded Accuracy, being a 4e design principle, which assists (to some degree) with having low CR monsters last longer (as opposed to minions, and not that one cannot include them within 5e);
• Book of Nine Swords influenced 4e and that influence carries through to 5e
• 5e provided a lot of room for tinkering reminiscent of 2e; and
• The return of the DM storyteller (as opposed to the one stuck in rules-law hell of 3.x, or the encounter builder of 4e. I'm being facetious)

My hopes are for the new edition they expand on Rituals, return of Skill Challenges as an optional mechanic, they reign in Cantrips and Magic in general (for world-building purposes) and they keep upping their game with monsters.

 

[Lanefan]

This is 100% what the fandom demanded though. WotC is not allowed to develop stuff independently because then they are “out of touch “ with fandom.

Hard to blame the fans for that, given WotC's one-step-forward-two-steps-back history of D&D design.

The fandom got what it demanded. You can’t then complain that WotC is doing what they were told to do by fans.

Fair, I suppose.

I guess my problem with it boils down to that people who as individuals are each perfectly decent, rational, and thoughtful somehow far too often seem to end up making stupid decisions as a collective. That's how we got 5e (which despite all its popularity isn't the greatest of designs), that's how we'll get 5.5e, and look no further than real-world politics anywhere for a much more serious (and, regrettably, ongoing) example of the same concept in action.

You want WotC to be creative? Stop burying them any time they step a toe out of line.

Depends what lines they decide to put their little tootsies over. If they try that OGL stunt again, for example, just watch the shovels come out.

 

[FrogReaver]

Neo-Vancian casting - straight from 4e. Reworked AEDU?

We probably could have had a nice little back and forth on the others… but seriously?

 

[Lanefan]

"Bounded accuracy/ advantage/ disadvantage/ subclasses/ concentration/ neo-vanician casting/ being able to move act move/ etc."

Bounded accuracy - 4e design principle.
Subclasses - straight from 4e. Hell, many of them are straight up NAMED for 4e subclasses.
Neo-Vancian casting - straight from 4e. Reworked AEDU?
While move-act-move was power specific, it was certainly present in 4e. And it was present in virtually every class.

One could argue bounded accuracy as a maybe-unintentional principle goes all the way back to 1974, other than taking a vacation during 3e's run.

And aren't subclasses just a reworking of 3e's prestige classes (which in turn date all the way back to the 1e Bard)?

Adv-disadv is new to 5e.

Concentration goes back to 1e if not earlier: many 1e illusion spells require the caster to maintain concentration to keep the illusion going.

Cantrips are a direct descendent of 4e's at-wills.

As for move-act-move, regardless where the idea got started, it's bad unless one's intent is to turn combat into a board game.

 

[mamba]

You said a bit more than that. You made it pretty clear that popularity as a design goal comes from WotC. That it's their choice to make it a design goal.

yes, that is WotC’s choice

My point is that they have been given zero choice in the matter. If they don't make popularity a priority, then they are going to get crucified. The whole design goal has been forced upon them by a fandom that absolutely will not accept any deviation from the baseline.

‘forced upon them’ how? At gunpoint? No, if they produce something less popular they are going to have fewer sales, just like any business would. The only power over WotC that people have is to buy their product or not, that is it.

You cannot really say that not buying something you don’t like forces WotC to create something you do like, that is not more true for WotC than for anyone else. You also cannot expect people to keep on buying stuff they do not like, just so WotC does not feel pressured by them, that is pure nonsense.

So where is the pressure? The online comments? As you said at other times, they will always get criticism from some part, no matter what they do. So that is just background noise. I grant you there will be more if they create something unwanted by the majority, but considering receiving feedback and the natural behavior of the market (popular stuff sells) a tool to force WotC and leaving them no choice is just plain wrong. They have a choice, but why would they choose to make something less popular intentionally…

 

[Hussar]

So where is the pressure? The online comments?

All one has to do is look at this thread. A single positive comment about 4e design and there's at least three counter comments claiming that none of the innovations of 4e are actually from 4e - heck @Lanefan's trying to claim bounded accuracy as a 1e thing. And folks are having a go at me for saying AEDU is neo-Vancian casting in drag? One single positive comment about 4e, and the edition war rhetoric gets dragged out, despite the edition warriors having won nearly ten years ago.

THAT'S the pressure. That's why WotC will not stray from the mainstream ever again. The fandom has spoken. One has only to look at the reactions to the playtests. Anything that is even remotely innovative gets voted down.

Good grief, they get shouted down for making a module that wasn't just yet another kill fest.

 

[Hussar]

We probably could have had a nice little back and forth on the others… but seriously?

Yes, seriously. In a 4e character, you have suite of powers available to you chosen when you level up. Those powers (by and large) don't change from level to level, just get added to. Granted, AEDU allowed some powers to be used more often, but, then, with the slot based casting in 5e, the actual number of times over the course of an adventuring day are probably pretty close.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Case and point. More than ten years later and this kind of thing rears its head the second 4e is invoked.

And people wonder why WotC does what it does. It has zero choice.

Funny how virtually all the changes that @FrogReaver brings up were 4e elements. But, since they were snuck in under the radar, no one thinks of them as 4e changes.

"Bounded accuracy/ advantage/ disadvantage/ subclasses/ concentration/ neo-vanician casting/ being able to move act move/ etc."

Bounded accuracy - 4e design principle.
Subclasses - straight from 4e. Hell, many of them are straight up NAMED for 4e subclasses.
Neo-Vancian casting - straight from 4e. Reworked AEDU?
While move-act-move was power specific, it was certainly present in 4e. And it was present in virtually every class.

i swear, from what i hear of it i feel like 80% of 4e is amazing design that would be great to play, and at least another 10% of that remaining 20% is just my personal preferences diverging from what 4e chose to be rather than it's actual quality at doing so.

 

[tetrasodium]

i swear, from what i hear of it i feel like 80% of 4e is amazing design that would be great to play, and at least another 10% of that remaining 20% is just my personal preferences diverging from what 4e chose to be rather than it's actual quality at doing so.

A lot of the time when you start digging into what 4e had instead of that 20% though you find that it had some elements in the rules structure to ensure things kept working instead of flying off into insanity. It might not have been an agreeable structure that resulted in a desirable game, but just knitting it creates headaches

 

[mamba]

All one has to do is look at this thread. A single positive comment about 4e design and there's at least three counter comments claiming that none of the innovations of 4e are actually from 4e

the question was whether WotC should innovate more, not whether they should bring 4e back

THAT'S the pressure. That's why WotC will not stray from the mainstream ever again. The fandom has spoken. One has only to look at the reactions to the playtests. Anything that is even remotely innovative gets voted down.

WotC killed some things that got enough votes in the name of compatibility, it was not just the poll results, and again it is WotC’s choice to listen to (and even have) these polls, no one is forcing them to. They do so because creating something popular means selling more copies, not because otherwise a hundred people on some forum go into a posting frenzy