D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

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MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
Untold millions of soldiers have charged into battle knowing they would likely not survive. People do things that terrify them all the time. Intimidating someone so much they run away is a mystical supernatural ability as far as I'm concerned.

Intimidate may be useful in my games at certain times depending on the disposition of the enemy. If it's possible to intimidate an enemy, I'll likely let the players know or at least drop multiple hints. But an enemy that is knowingly risking their lives and they do it anyway is not going to be scared away by someone looking at them funny.
Let's quote.

"This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. Activating this ability is a free action that is usually part of an attack or charge. Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. The range is usually 30 feet, and the duration is usually 5d6 rounds. This ability affects only opponents with fewer Hit Dice or levels than the creature has. An affected opponent can resist the effects with a successful Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 frightful creature’s racial HD + that frightful creature’s Charisma modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a failed save, the opponent is shaken, or panicked if it has 4 Hit Dice or fewer. An opponent that succeeds at the saving throw is immune to that same creature’s frightful presence for 24 hours. Frightful presence is a mind-affecting fear effect."

This is Frightful Presence from Pathfinder 1e (so basically D&D 3.75). The ability is Extraordinary, meaning that it is perfectly functional in an antimagic field. It is not Supernatural. It is not Spell-like. It has nothing to do with magic and it can make people flee.
 

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Hussar

Legend
So, any trait that requires even the slightest bit of interpretation or may vary depending on the immediate circumstances is supernatural to you? Okay then...

See here’s the funny thing.

There are no other “magic” fighter powers. There aren’t. Come and Get it is the only questionable fighter power in the 4e phb.

That’s why I get so prickly about these conversations. Because of the blatant misrepresentation that goes on. Fighters having magical powers wasn’t a big issue. It was ONE power among the hundred ish in the 4e PHB.

But critics would have us believe that this was a rampant element that permeated every single power a fighter had.

It’s a criticism that is so ludicrously easy to debunk.

But ten years later, the drum beat is still all that you hear.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
See here’s the funny thing.

There are no other “magic” fighter powers. There aren’t. Come and Get it is the only questionable fighter power in the 4e phb.

That’s why I get so prickly about these conversations. Because of the blatant misrepresentation that goes on. Fighters having magical powers wasn’t a big issue. It was ONE power among the hundred ish in the 4e PHB.

But critics would have us believe that this was a rampant element that permeated every single power a fighter had.

It’s a criticism that is so ludicrously easy to debunk.

But ten years later, the drum beat is still all that you hear.
Some people feel that "marking" is somehow magical (actually somewhat true with the Dwarven Dragonmark in 4e Eberron).

But the main thing was, people saw that casters had powers, and then they saw fighters had powers- ergo fighter = caster. Like a lot of things in our world, emotion > logic in what people like/dislike far too often.*

*I'm not saying there's no logic involved in disliking 4e Fighter design decisions. Just that there are many who have opinions that don't seem to stem from logic.

Personally, as a fan of 4e, I'm going to say something that might seem heretical. The 4e Fighter...kind of sucks.

First let's look at marking in general. In theory, -2 to hit should always be a relevant penalty. However, not all monsters are created equal. Soldiers could have higher accuracy, and "on-demand" combat advantage wasn't unheard of. So it's not a huge gamble at higher levels to ignore the mark.

Then the penalty for ignoring the mark is a regular old attack, and many 4e monsters could have lots of hit points. Plus the attack has to hit.

All this to present a rough choice on whether to hit the Fighter or hit someone else. However, if you keep attacking the Fighter all the time, their damage contribution goes down, fights take longer, the Fighter runs out of healing surges eventually and becomes useless.

So really, the DM should never target the Fighter...but in that case, you're left with a high AC guy with less damage output and a bunch of half-dead strikers and leaders. Not really ideal either. So the game seems to want you to flip a coin every time you're marked.

Then we get to the part that it's really easy to have defenses equal to the Fighter's, and strong hit points isn't hard to get either (especially with later backgrounds like Born Under A Bad Sign). In addition, since the mark takes your reaction, the Fighter is only really good at keeping one thing locked down in general.

You can multimark, and there are utilities that debuff a large group for a turn, but after that, no dice, so you're not very useful against a horde. Not to mention being dazed, stunned, or subject to forced movement can also trivialize you.

Finally, many of your best moves involve low tier Controller abilities like slow, prone, and forced movement, which most classes can do.

The final nail in the coffin was the limits of the Martial power source. Other defenders could do things like teleport, heal, deal energy damage, punish at range, create zones of difficult terrain, you name it. The Fighter had...+1 to hit with weapons (well and a guaranteed good basic attack, which every Defender needed, but not all got).

You could replace the Fighter with another role, like a Striker (kill things faster, and if they have to be hard to kill, the Barbarian is in the next book over), Controller (two overlapping zones of control means bad guys go nowhere!), or Leader (twice the heals, twice the buffs, and pacifist powers have good control)!

I played a lot of Living Forgotten Realms, and that meant a lot of different group compositions. A lot of monsters seemed custom built to be unfriendly to Defenders, and again, Fighters had the worst toolkit to deal with strange monster abilities.
 

Oofta

Legend
Let's quote.

"This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. Activating this ability is a free action that is usually part of an attack or charge. Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. The range is usually 30 feet, and the duration is usually 5d6 rounds. This ability affects only opponents with fewer Hit Dice or levels than the creature has. An affected opponent can resist the effects with a successful Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 frightful creature’s racial HD + that frightful creature’s Charisma modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a failed save, the opponent is shaken, or panicked if it has 4 Hit Dice or fewer. An opponent that succeeds at the saving throw is immune to that same creature’s frightful presence for 24 hours. Frightful presence is a mind-affecting fear effect."

This is Frightful Presence from Pathfinder 1e (so basically D&D 3.75). The ability is Extraordinary, meaning that it is perfectly functional in an antimagic field. It is not Supernatural. It is not Spell-like. It has nothing to do with magic and it can make people flee.


I don't care how you interpret it. I don't care what it's labeled. In the real world a soldier could only under rare and special circumstances intimidate an enemy so much that they would run. You cannot consistently frighten people that knowingly and willingly are already risking their lives enough to make them run. Since I don't see it happening in the real world, it is more than a natural ability. It is, in other words a supernatural ability, a magical mind affecting fear effect that does not happen in our mundane reality.

Antimagic fields are very specific in what they affect. Ghosts can walk through an antimagic zone all day and they are the definition of supernatural.
 

Stormonu

Legend
Well, first of all, not every creature that picks up a weapon to fight is automatically a soldier whose been trained to hold their ground (that's what those levels and bonuses to Wisdom saves are for). Also, there's plenty of accounts of actual soldiers losing their nerve and running from an enemy or worse.

Real or imagined, there's plenty of (fantasy) tales of individuals being frightened to death, and 0 hp means defeat however the DM wants to interpret it, whether it's croaking, giving up or otherwise removing themselves from the conflict. Defeat need not mean death.

I'd be willing to allow a fighter an ability where they could do damage with a stare, representing them taking the fight out of the enemy with their grim determination. Even a high level ability that with they can freeze the heart of an enemy with a murderous glare to the point where the target has a heart attack and dies of fright.

And it wouldn't be a spell or supernatural in nature.
 

Well, first of all, not every creature that picks up a weapon to fight is automatically a soldier whose been trained to hold their ground (that's what those levels and bonuses to Wisdom saves are for). Also, there's plenty of accounts of actual soldiers losing their nerve and running from an enemy or worse.

Real or imagined, there's plenty of (fantasy) tales of individuals being frightened to death, and 0 hp means defeat however the DM wants to interpret it, whether it's croaking, giving up or otherwise removing themselves from the conflict. Defeat need not mean death.

I'd be willing to allow a fighter an ability where they could do damage with a stare, representing them taking the fight out of the enemy with their grim determination. Even a high level ability that with they can freeze the heart of an enemy with a murderous glare to the point where the target has a heart attack and dies of fright.

And it wouldn't be a spell or supernatural in nature.
The more simulationious approach would be to have a morale subsystem that governs when someone would retreat and give the Fighter unique ways to manipulate that subsystem.
 

Hussar

Legend
The more simulationious approach would be to have a morale subsystem that governs when someone would retreat and give the Fighter unique ways to manipulate that subsystem.
But, that's not allowable either since we'd have to have a way for PC's to be affected by this and no version of D&D has ever allowed PC's to be affected by morale. And anything that the PC's do, according to simulationists anyway (or a certain subset of them in any case) insists that anything a PC can do MUST BE allowed to affect a PC.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Well, first of all, not every creature that picks up a weapon to fight is automatically a soldier whose been trained to hold their ground (that's what those levels and bonuses to Wisdom saves are for). Also, there's plenty of accounts of actual soldiers losing their nerve and running from an enemy or worse.

Real or imagined, there's plenty of (fantasy) tales of individuals being frightened to death, and 0 hp means defeat however the DM wants to interpret it, whether it's croaking, giving up or otherwise removing themselves from the conflict. Defeat need not mean death.

I'd be willing to allow a fighter an ability where they could do damage with a stare, representing them taking the fight out of the enemy with their grim determination. Even a high level ability that with they can freeze the heart of an enemy with a murderous glare to the point where the target has a heart attack and dies of fright.

And it wouldn't be a spell or supernatural in nature.

I'm pretty sure most people would find a consistently repeatable "look that kills" ability to be supernatural in a story - even if it was labeled as only Extraordinary in the PF 1e adaptation of it. If we're not at the same gaming table or writing a rule book together then we luckily don't need to come to an agreement about it.
 

MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
I don't care how you interpret it. I don't care what it's labeled. In the real world a soldier could only under rare and special circumstances intimidate an enemy so much that they would run. You cannot consistently frighten people that knowingly and willingly are already risking their lives enough to make them run. Since I don't see it happening in the real world, it is more than a natural ability. It is, in other words a supernatural ability, a magical mind affecting fear effect that does not happen in our mundane reality.

Antimagic fields are very specific in what they affect. Ghosts can walk through an antimagic zone all day and they are the definition of supernatural.
I never said it needs to be consistently usable. If it requires a save it isn't consistent.
But, that's not allowable either since we'd have to have a way for PC's to be affected by this and no version of D&D has ever allowed PC's to be affected by morale. And anything that the PC's do, according to simulationists anyway (or a certain subset of them in any case) insists that anything a PC can do MUST BE allowed to affect a PC.
Ah so that's why people are asking how this and that ability would work when used against a PC...
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
I never said it needs to be consistently usable. If it requires a save it isn't consistent.

Would it be obvious what someone meant if they described cantrips as consistently useable spells (as opposed to ones that use slots)? Even if they need to hit rolls or give saves?

If not, I'm guessing "frequently repeatable" would be a substitution for "consistent" that would serve the same purpose.
 

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