• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

Plan to adopt the new core rules?

  • Yep

    Votes: 256 53.3%
  • Nope

    Votes: 224 46.7%

Hussar

Legend
No, they choose one of the 5 available paths, all were ready for play. If they had chosen a 6th option, as I do not constrain their actions, then I would have had to improvise.
Heh. That's a DM with FARRR more time available than I ever have. Sorry, the players are lucky if I have one option prepared a lot of times to be honest. It's why I tend to use modules so much - at least there I have more options available. You've set up a linear scenario - players must travel from A to B and the adventure is at B, as far as they are concerned. As a player, I'm invested in getting to B. That's where the adventure is. That's where we want to go. Everything that detracts from getting to B is mostly pointless side material that I usually have very little patience for.

You've already hooked the players. They WANT to go on this adventure at Point B. They are doing their level best to reach Point B. What's the point in making getting to Point B a trial? We all know we're going to get to Point B. And, the campaign isn't really going to progress until we get to Point B. Typically, everything on the way to Point B is superfluous. That's the whole point of linear adventures.

But, all this is a bit beside the point. The point we were actually talking about is using the character background without it being a real problem. If the players simply said, "Ok, we need to get to X. I'm going to use my sailor background to book passage on a ship."

DM: There are five ships in the port that are going where you want to go.
Player: Is there any real difference between them?
DM: Not that you can tell.
Player: (rolls) I pick ship 3.

Poof. Done. Since it does not matter in the slightest to the players which ship they choose, because they cannot actually know the secret stuff, it's all pretty much a random choice anyway. There's nothing saying you can't add stuff to the journey. That's fair. But, that's also not what's being talked about here.

What's being discussed is the player tries to leverage their background ability, and the DM simply blocks it, vetoes it, or turns it into a disadvantage somehow, all in the name of "role play".
 

log in or register to remove this ad

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Heh. That's a DM with FARRR more time available than I ever have. Sorry, the players are lucky if I have one option prepared a lot of times to be honest. It's why I tend to use modules so much - at least there I have more options available.
Knowing you use modules a lot helps me understand your point better. You having read and prepped for the adventure do know very well which npc is important or not.

Since I am not running modules (AND I'm well aware my players will talk to all five ships...) I approach it differently.

As far as the original background question (not that I want to touch that "argument" with a 10 foot pole) what I will say is;

If there is anyway we can allow the background to work, we normally will. (I gave a folk hero example waaaaaaaayyyy up thread that had an important point to it that i think just got passed by)

Thanks!
 

Hussar

Legend
If there is anyway we can allow the background to work, we normally will. (I gave a folk hero example waaaaaaaayyyy up thread that had an important point to it that i think just got passed by)
Honestly? That's probably the healthiest response.

Player tries to use background and should probably expect it to work most of the time. Sure, there's exceptions. And I accept that. That's not an issue.

Where I tend to draw the line is that backgrounds get tried and virtually never work. Every ship captain is a slaver who will try to kill you. Every messenger is really a spy and ruins your plans. Every time you try to take a rest, the baddies immediately spot you anyway and your background is pointless.

Funnily enough, I looked at the backgrounds of my PC's in my current campaign and, for the life of me, I can't think of a single time they would come up in the game. :D Which, really, I do think explains my attitude about this. The players are choosing their backgrounds blind. They don't really know, other than in broad terms, what the campaign is going to be. So, it's a crap shoot whether their background abilities will come up or not. So, if it does come up, I think of it as a nice cookie to give to the players for winning that crap shoot.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Yup, we're here to role play. Does that mean I have to play out, in real time, in first person, every single interaction with every single person we meet? Bugger that. Talking to random NPC who DOES NOT MATTER is pointless. The only reason I "have" to talk to the ship's captain is because the DM is forcing it. I don't want to. The ship's captain is utterly irrelevant to what we are doing. After we arrive at Point B, he will never be seen again.
You think.

For all you know you might see that captain again, and-or he might be somehow relevant either now or later.
I have an ability on my character sheet that I chose. I CHOSE this ability and background. I made it perfectly clear by chosing this that I have zero interest in playing this out in detail.
You might see it that way but I suspect quite few others do. I, for example, would see your choice of a sailor background as suggesting you were looking/hoping for a maritime-oriented campaign and-or that you had ideas for roleplaying a maritime character, i.e. that you wanted more opportunities for in-detail roleplay with NPC sailors rather than less.
Now, if I, the player, CHOOSE to make your ship's captain important, and start talking to him, that's a different story. The player is showing interest? Fantastic. Great. Let's get right to it. I'll move heaven and earth to make that NPC interesting for your character.
Great! Though, this would seem to conflict with...
Again, it's all about pacing. You have no problems wasting my time because you figure that the campaign is going to go for years. Me? Six to 12 months. 50 sessions for a 1-15 level campaign is about right. So, I'm not about to waste everyone's time on some random NPC in a pointless, foregone interaction.

DM: You are in Baldur's Gate and you need to get to Waterdeep in order to do X.
Player: Ok, I book passage on a ship using my Sailor Background.
DM: Ok, two weeks pass, you are now in Waterdeep. Let's get on with the adventure. Was there anything you wanted to do in those two weeks aboard ship?
Players: No, not really.
DM: Ok, sure. You're in Waterdeep....

THAT'S the pacing I'm looking for.
...this, where it seems you want to skip over these detailed interactions at every opportunity.

Which is fine until-unless you get a player - or a table of 'em - who wants to go into lots of detail interacting with lots of "irrelevant" NPCs. Then what?

Also, the whole problem some - including me - are having with this is that the outcome of the interaction is foregone, where it shouldn't be. There should always be a chance of failure, even if small, and the rules need to reflect this.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
These are ridiculous examples and no player would ever actually try any of this.
And yet the written word of the rules says that if a player in fact has the nerve to try any of those, the attempt has to succeed.

The only thing preventing it is players self-restraining by telling themselves it shouldn't work in the fiction; a position players shouldn't be put in.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Have played with that one player. It made me stop playing 3e or DMing it. Or any other game with him.

He tried to make cantrips work as high level spells and expoit anything not explicitly forbidden. Used any freedom in character building to find the most exploitable combinations and tried to remedy any disadvantage of the build with cheap tricks.
(I can just use a hood, so that I am protected from sund and noone recognizes that I am a drow...).
And that's where the DM just has to bring out the smackdown hammer and use it. Repeatedly, if necessary.

Also, IMO it's the DM's job to, as far as possible, identify and shut down those exploitable combinations; preferably before the players ever get access to them, or - if necessary - as they arise in play.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
So, if I'm understanding this right, the entire plotline, created by the DM, centered around a 20% chance of actually occurring? That 4 out of 5 times, you "great adventure" wouldn't actually happen?

Not sure if I want to DM that way.
I DM that way, if not all the time, certainly often enough.

Depending on the situation, I'll sometimes salt in different elements and possible twists that may or may not ever arise but that might - if they do - send things in different directions and-or toward different outcomes.

@SkidAce 's example is a good one: if the PCs happen to interact with the spy, events then and forward will probably go in different directions than if they don't happen to interact with him. Those events may have been different again had the PCs taken the rich merchant's ship, and if the PCs take one of the other three ships then the campaign goes on with none the wiser. And for all we know, neither the spy nor the merchant might have had anything to do with the actual adventure the PCs were travelling to; instead representing seeds (or even foreshadowing) for potential future events.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Heh. That's a DM with FARRR more time available than I ever have. Sorry, the players are lucky if I have one option prepared a lot of times to be honest. It's why I tend to use modules so much - at least there I have more options available. You've set up a linear scenario - players must travel from A to B and the adventure is at B, as far as they are concerned. As a player, I'm invested in getting to B. That's where the adventure is. That's where we want to go. Everything that detracts from getting to B is mostly pointless side material that I usually have very little patience for.

You've already hooked the players. They WANT to go on this adventure at Point B. They are doing their level best to reach Point B. What's the point in making getting to Point B a trial? We all know we're going to get to Point B. And, the campaign isn't really going to progress until we get to Point B. Typically, everything on the way to Point B is superfluous. That's the whole point of linear adventures.
As a player, even though we're in theory on our way to an adventure at point B I'm almost always on the lookout for side treks and other adventures even if it means we might never get to point B (it's happened, now and then). Also, do they really want to go to point B or are they going there because it's the only option they've been given?

Put another way, unless the DM wants to run the game on rails there's really no such thing as "pointless".
But, all this is a bit beside the point. The point we were actually talking about is using the character background without it being a real problem. If the players simply said, "Ok, we need to get to X. I'm going to use my sailor background to book passage on a ship."

DM: There are five ships in the port that are going where you want to go.
Player: Is there any real difference between them?
DM: Not that you can tell.
Player: (rolls) I pick ship 3.

Poof. Done. Since it does not matter in the slightest to the players which ship they choose, because they cannot actually know the secret stuff, it's all pretty much a random choice anyway. There's nothing saying you can't add stuff to the journey. That's fair. But, that's also not what's being talked about here.
As you're narrating to a character with the sailor background, who in theory knows a bit about ships and how to tell one apart from another, unless these ships were very foreign I'd give a far more detailed answer to the bolded question than what the DM gives here; indicating differences in type, likely speed, condition and upkeep, rough-weather resistance, and so on.

Unless the differences were blatant, the "not that you can tell" answer is what someone who's never seen a ship might get.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Heh. That's a DM with FARRR more time available than I ever have. Sorry, the players are lucky if I have one option prepared a lot of times to be honest. It's why I tend to use modules so much - at least there I have more options available. You've set up a linear scenario - players must travel from A to B and the adventure is at B, as far as they are concerned. As a player, I'm invested in getting to B. That's where the adventure is. That's where we want to go. Everything that detracts from getting to B is mostly pointless side material that I usually have very little patience for.

You've already hooked the players. They WANT to go on this adventure at Point B. They are doing their level best to reach Point B. What's the point in making getting to Point B a trial? We all know we're going to get to Point B. And, the campaign isn't really going to progress until we get to Point B. Typically, everything on the way to Point B is superfluous. That's the whole point of linear adventures.
If anything, what happens between Point A and Point B is an encounter. Just not one rolled on a Random Encounter Table. Don't most pre-made adventures have Random Encounter Tables?

Anyway, you're making a lot of assumptions here. Number one is that having an encounter of any sort is a trial--that anything that stops you from instantly getting to Point B is a trial. Level Up, for instance, is clearly written by people who like Lord of the Rings, which is almost entirely about encounters while on the road to destroy the One Ring. It never would have become even remotely famous if we removed all that content and simply teleported from the Shire directly to Mount Doom.

Also, why are you assuming that this is a linear adventure? All you know from this example is that the PCs needed to get from Point A to Point B. But there could also have been Points C, D, and E, and the PCs just chose Point B first. This can very easily be a sandbox game, where the Points are fleshed out. The five ships could have been taken from any number of sources--there are even online random ship generators. You may not have a lot of time, but I'm sure you have enough time to push a button a couple of times, if you wanted to.

Third, why are you assuming that travel has to be a trial? Have you only ever had GMs who did travel badly? Go look at Level Up, which really went out of its way to make travel interesting.

Fourth. OK, you mostly run modules. I'm not sure what your point is here. That people who have encounters between major locations in their game are bad GMs? That it's impossible for an adventure that has encounters between major locations to be good?

But, all this is a bit beside the point. The point we were actually talking about is using the character background without it being a real problem. If the players simply said, "Ok, we need to get to X. I'm going to use my sailor background to book passage on a ship."

DM: There are five ships in the port that are going where you want to go.
Player: Is there any real difference between them?
DM: Not that you can tell.
Player: (rolls) I pick ship 3.

Poof. Done. Since it does not matter in the slightest to the players which ship they choose, because they cannot actually know the secret stuff, it's all pretty much a random choice anyway. There's nothing saying you can't add stuff to the journey. That's fair. But, that's also not what's being talked about here.
Except this is incorrect. @SkidAce said the PCs talked to the NPCs on the ship and then made a choice based on what they learned. By doing so, they learned information about the ships--maybe not the secret spy stuff, but the spy's cover identity.

One of the ships belonged to a merchant lord. If the PCs had chosen their ship, they could have made merchant connections, maybe traded for some interesting equipment, or even tried to steal some stuff. Any of these things could be important at Point B. But because the ship was owned by a merchant lord, the PCs could also potentially learn about slower travel times due to making more stops, or that the ship was at risk of pirates. Which means it might take longer to get to Point B, but they potentially can get supplies at other stops, or get XP and loot if they're attacked by pirates and win the fight.

One of the ships belonged to a spy. I don't know the spy's cover story, but it's likewise possible that they could have made some sort of connection with them. Depending on the PCs and their classes, they may also have discovered that the captain was a spy and therefore gotten a connection to the ruling class in some way, maybe with good results, maybe with bad ones, depending on what the rulers are like and how the PCs dealt with the spy. There's also the possibility that the spy ship was built to be faster or stronger in some way, making their trip to Point B faster or less risky.

Three of the ships were generic. I'm going to assume that they were small-time traders or fishers. Maybe nothing interesting would have happened if the PCs took one of these boats. Or maybe they would have befriended the captain, who could then be willing to provide room and board at a later time. Especially if the PCs paid really well (let's face it: PCs either refuse to part with a single copper or tip like gold is going out of style.)

Look at all these possibilities--which took me only a couple of minutes to come up with, so don't say that they took "far too much time." Loot, XP, connections, and plot hooks for the future. For what? Spending some time talking and rolling the dice?

Speaking of taking "too much time," that time is often very worthwhile for a GM. For my upcoming game, it will start with a simple "get this thing to this person ASAP" quest. While it's almost a given that the PCs will go via The Tunnels, there's a chance they'll go via The Streets. Since I'm running in Level Up and I wanted to have the PCs to encounter an exploration challenge, I looked up the level- and area-appropriate challenges and saw one for encountering a gang of criminals. I spent a short time thinking about it and from that, was able to imagine a street gang that has a connection to an NPC the players will encounter early on and that has the potential to used as a minor "boss fight"-style event in a couple of levels. This means that even if the PCs go vial The Tunnels, the prep for The Streets won't be in vain.

What's being discussed is the player tries to leverage their background ability, and the DM simply blocks it, vetoes it, or turns it into a disadvantage somehow, all in the name of "role play".
Look at my examples up there. In fact, look at any example I have made in this thread. Show me how any potential disadvantage there might be from rolling the dice or talking outweighs all the potential gains you can get.
 

And that's where the DM just has to bring out the smackdown hammer and use it. Repeatedly, if necessary.
What do you mean with "smackdown hammer" ?
Also, IMO it's the DM's job to, as far as possible, identify and shut down those exploitable combinations; preferably before the players ever get access to them, or - if necessary - as they arise in play.
Yeah. As if all of them are obvious...

i do as best as I can there. But you can play some of those combinations without being disruptive. The player in question always tried to expoit something that was not obvious, based on what was strictly not disallowed by a feature or spell. No way to find all of them.

Also, I need to add, that I was not blameless there. For quite a while I did similarly but I have learned a lot since then. At the end of 3e I found out how 3.0 was supposed to work. How to utilize the skill system in a way that makes powergaming unnecessary:

Not the ever increasing DCs of late 3.5, but just using lower DCs and asking players to take 10 and 20 frequently so usually things just work. And suddenly fighters had enough skill points. Rogues too. Because they did not have to max skills to be useful.

As a base for DCs I used cross class skills. And even if it your class skill, I only allowed to increase them to max rank if they were used in the adventure.

With that in mind, we are nearly at 5e skills: proficiency as baseline and expertise as exception.

So to enable people using their mundane skills and have a good time, tge secret is lowering DCs to manageable levels...

Oh I got sidetracked. Was it this thread, where we talked about background features? If so, I think the most important thing to remember is that as a DM you actually want the players to win and have fun. Instead of shutting down features and combinations, you need to make the players trist you, that you won't "screw" them, so they never feel the need to break your game.
 

Remove ads

Top