Do you use Non-associated class levels?

[Gundark]

From the SRD

"Nonassociated Class Levels

If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1. "

In my Age of Worms campaign the party will be facing a Mind Flayer with 7 levels of sorcerer making it a CR 10 (11 with underlings). I know my group might gripe about this but hey life is tough . I'm wondering who else uses this rule.

 

[Fenes]

How would a sorcerer level 7 not play to a caster's strength?

 

[frankthedm]

From the SRD

"Nonassociated Class Levels

If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1. "

In my Age of Worms campaign the party will be facing a Mind Flayer with 7 levels of sorcerer making it a CR 10 (11 with underlings). I know my group might gripe about this but hey life is tough . I'm wondering who else uses this rule.

Yeah, I use it.

Remember that "doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength " is what makes the levels non associated. If there a way the critter CAN get those seeminly non-associated levels to directly play to it's strength, then those levels stop being non-associated.

 

[Psion]

Sure. If you use classed monsters, why wouldn't you use it? To intentionally deceive yourself as to the level of challenge you are presenting the players?

 

[frankthedm]

How would a sorcerer level 7 not play to a caster's strength?

When your normal attacks dwarf the effectivness of a 3rd level spell. The concept of non associated levels come from that in a typcle D&D battle the NPC acts 3 to 4, maybe 5 times in combat if it is lucky. Until the class levels make the critter signifigantly better than it already is, the handful of character levels mean very little. Mindflayers mind blast at will, throwing a fireball is [almost] wasting an action in many situations.

Oh, that mindflayer is cheating the system just a little.

 

[Odhanan]

I use the non-associated class levels advice when considering CRs, yes.

 

[Fenes]

When your normal attacks dwarf the effectivness of a 3rd level spell. The concept of non associated levels come from that in a typcle D&D battle the NPC acts 3 to 4, maybe 5 times in combat if it is lucky. Until the class levels make the critter signifigantly better than it already is, the handful of character levels mean very little. Mindflayers mind blast at will, throwing a fireball is [almost] wasting an action in many situations.

Oh, that mindflayer is cheating the system just a little.

Oh, blasting is rather inefficient. I thought spells like shield, mage armor, invisibility, web, slow, fly, stat buffs etc. would play directly to his strength. At least in my opinion, a mind flayer with those spells on him would be significantly better in combat.

 

[MerricB]

Oh, blasting is rather inefficient. I thought spells like shield, mage armor, invisibility, web, slow, fly, stat buffs etc. would play directly to his strength. At least in my opinion, a mind flayer with those spells on him would be significantly better in combat.

Do you consider it a CR 14 encounter? I wouldn't. Those abilities help... but they don't do so significantly enough to make it CR 14.

A 14th level party has a lot of resources. So many, that spells of 3rd level and below don't really bother them that much. Greater Dispel Magic aimed at the mind flayer just kills all the buffs, because Sorcerer level 7 doesn't give much protection.

Cheers!

 

[pawsplay]

Sorcerer levels should definitely apply to the mind flayer as an associated class. The have a solid Cha bonus, and a caster's usual weakness (melee) plays right into their tentacles. A high Cha boosts several of their abilities. If they can render a foe helpless, it's about all over.

A mind flayer sorcerer 7 is CR, particularly if you include gear. I can say this from experience.

But if you don't believe me, you could look in the MM and see that the elite mind flayer there treats sorcerer as an associated class, sorcerer 9, CR 16.

In general, I find this applies whenever a monster has a bonus to the spellcasting stat, and that stat also modifies some of the DCs of the abilities they have. Despite some misgivings, I discovered in play test (reported here) that applies even to oddities like the ogre mage. Right off the bat, compared to an average ogre mage, he has +4 Cha thanks to the elite ability array, which means +2 DC on his spell-like abilities. Then I gave him a cloak of charisma and a partially charged staff of fire. Even without Practiced Caster, he was a grim threat to the party.

 

[Fenes]

Do you consider it a CR 14 encounter? I wouldn't. Those abilities help... but they don't do so significantly enough to make it CR 14.

A 14th level party has a lot of resources. So many, that spells of 3rd level and below don't really bother them that much. Greater Dispel Magic aimed at the mind flayer just kills all the buffs, because Sorcerer level 7 doesn't give much protection.

Cheers!

But it will be significantly tougher for a level 10 party, who hasn't access to the level 6 greater dispel magic spell for one thing. The 7 sorcerer levels also mean better saves, and more hitpoints, which can be boosted even more with the bear's endurance. And the eagle's splendor would boost his attack DCs too.

And if you add a few scrolls to it - how much is a scroll of improved invisibility? - the mindflayer could get even worse.

I'd not expect him to be a 25% fight for a level 10 party.