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D&D 5E Does 5E avoid the overloads of previous editions?

Halivar

First Post
Er...no we're not. Not all of us, anyway.

To some of us PF/3e is just as bad as 4e, only in different ways.If they come out with a 5e that can be played rules-light old-school-style I (and I suspect quite a few others) will at least give it a long hard look if not adopt it wholesale.

I am currently running two Pathfinder games. If 5E were out, I would be running it in at least one of those groups. The prep for Pathfinder is just as arduous as it was for 3E.

My point is: some people might come back.
From reading you guys' posts on EnWorld, I would definitely describe you both as "non-partisan" in the edition wars. To clarify my earlier statement, when I said "The ones that want it to go in another direction are gone" I meant the people for whom 3.x IS D&D and all others are pretenders. I don't think of you guys like that. You didn't like 4E, but you aren't going to turn up your nose on an awesome game. you are exactly the sort of people WotC can and should strive to recapture.
 

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Iosue

Legend
I don't dissent from the general thrust of this. But even moreso I think are examples like Transformers (no serious story there that I'm aware of), or Green Arrow (basically adds nothing to Batman except a bow and arrows). Or SHIELD, for that matter, and the Black Widow. All these second-string characters and ideas are being put to work - why can't elements of D&D?
People seem to forget now, but when Marvel announced plans for an Iron Man movie, there was a lot of folks snickering in their sleeves about them scraping the bottom of the barrel because they didn't have access to the film rights for Spider-Man, X-Men, and Fantastic Four. Look where they are now.
 

Iosue

Legend
D&D's numbers, for 4e Player's Handbooks alone dwarfs Fate's entire line by at least 2 orders of magnitude, possibly 3.
I have to walk this back a bit and rephrase. "Orders of magnitude" was used imprecisely. 4e PHBs have probably sold, lifetime, nearly 10 times more units than Fate's entire line (certainly not 100x, and nowhere close 1,000x). The entire 4e line, lifetime, may or may not have cleared 1 million units. Perhaps a better way to make my point is that during the panel, Luke Crane (and Mike Mearls) suggested that a game selling 5,000 units was considered a success. It was also suggested that the non-D&D industry leaders measure their units sold by 10s of 1000s, with core sets probably topping out around 20,000. By even the most conservative of estimates, WotC measures units of D&D sold by 100s of 1000s.
 

The Black Ranger

First Post
People seem to forget now, but when Marvel announced plans for an Iron Man movie, there was a lot of folks snickering in their sleeves about them scraping the bottom of the barrel because they didn't have access to the film rights for Spider-Man, X-Men, and Fantastic Four. Look where they are now.

Are you honestly trying to compare this to D&D?
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Are you honestly trying to compare this to D&D?

It's an apt comparison. I think people forget what was happening with Marvel before the movies hit it big. They were selling Marvel off for parts, the comic sales had totally collapsed, licensing was dropping away, writers and artists were fleeing to DC and Image, and the company had already filed for bankruptcy. Publicly, those Marvel characters were considered childish nonsense, and the collector fad of the 80s-90s was considered a scam. It was a really dark time for Marvel.

The Iron Man movie WAS considered a joke by many, before it came out. The character was not well known or popular, they cast an actor who was known at the time as a washed up drunk and drug addict, the director was from indie films who had actually kinda failed after a while at that and had already slipped into television (and not particularly successful television at that), there was a lot of talk about Marvel really scrapping the bottom of the barrel just to make something of their own.

People like to forget what things look like before success, and focus on just the memorable success. But I'd say WOTC and D&D are in a better place than Marvel was, before Iron Man struck gold (and really before Spiderman showed the movies could work). There is a lot of reason for optimism for D&D right now - if only people could see past the natural tendency to snark and rip things down on the Internet.
 
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Iosue

Legend
Are you honestly trying to compare this to D&D?
Am I saying that WotC will be able to easily parley the D&D IP into successful movies, marketing, and merchandising like Marvel has with Iron Man? No.

Am I saying that past failures on TSR and WotC's part to parley the D&D IP into successful movies, marketing and merchandising mean little as far as WotC's future attempts to successfully parley the D&D IP into various cross-media revenue streams? Yes.

Am I saying that the relative current popularity and awareness of various D&D IP mean little for the future success of various cross-media ventures using that IP? Yes.

Basically, it's a question of quality. The comparison is that Iron Man was one of Marvel's lesser known IPs. When they announced they were making a movie with that IP, people laughed at the idea, much as people are pooh-poohing the idea of WotC leveraging the D&D IP in various media. But Marvel made a kick-ass movie, and now their profit margin waxes, and Iron Man is a household name. WotC doesn't need to achieve that level of success -- but if what they create is good, it'll create revenues for the D&D brand, regardless of how crappy the Dragonlance animated movie was, or how dire the Dungeons & Dragons movies were.

D&D can take their most minor IP -- say, the Black Eagle Barony of the Known World, and make a video game of it. If the video game is quality, that will add value to the IP. They can make a Forgotten Realms cartoon. If the cartoon is quality, that will add value to the IP, perhaps leading to even more uses for it.

Now, is anyone saying this will happen? God, no. Quality is difficult! All we're saying is that it could happen, and the upside is high enough that it's worth WotC making the attempt.
 

Texicles

First Post
...or D&D play doh sets.
Sign me up! That stuff is delicious.

On topic, I think [MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION] nailed it. Quality is the watchword of brand's future success. If they make up an accessible, generic fantasy story with a plot interesting enough for -and this is the important bit- the average movie-goer (which sets the bar quite a bit lower than if the audience were the average RPG-player), then it will be a hit as long as it's cast, directed and special-effected well.

Done well, you could put out such a movie when school let's out for the summer, and by Halloween, little girls will be dressed like Princess Whoever and their brothers will be hitting them with D&D-branded plastic swords.* This is money in WotC/Hasbro's pocket, regardless of whether or not it's true to the D&D roots, based on uniquely-D&D ideas or is consistent with the rules. Money for them means wiggle-room in the budget for the brand's namesake to continue doing what's good for it, and we weirdos who play it.


*Note: The author does not condone the hitting of girls with swords, real or plastic, unless they're trying to hit you with the same. However, the author is also aware that young boys with sisters are unlikely to read or agree with his opinions.
 

Hussar

Legend
And let's be honest here that when we are talk g about quality, it's a pretty low bar. When Battleship is one of the year's top grossing movies in Korea, there really is no accounting for taste.

I'd be happy with something that just makes enough profit to make sequels.
 

pemerton

Legend
Are you honestly trying to compare this to D&D?
D&D can take their most minor IP -- say, the Black Eagle Barony of the Known World, and make a video game of it. If the video game is quality, that will add value to the IP.
I think the Black Eagle Barony is a nice example. It's a bit obscure, but by ordinary standards no more obscure than some of those lesser Marvel characters, and less silly than some of them.

Turning that sort of stuff into good movies or cartoons or games or whatever isn't really about the quality of the originating intellectual property - it's about the quality of the work that riffs off it. (I'm a big fan of Claremont X-Men, but I have to admire the way the movie stories take all the best of what was in Claremont's stories and weed out the filler that is a staple of 4-colour serial fiction but isn't really crucial to the X-Men story "experience".)

If they make up an accessible, generic fantasy story with a plot interesting enough for -and this is the important bit- the average movie-goer (which sets the bar quite a bit lower than if the audience were the average RPG-player), then it will be a hit as long as it's cast, directed and special-effected well.
Given what seems to pass as a well-written/scripted module or campaign world, and from what I know of TSR/WotC's novels, I don't think that "average RPGer" sets the bar any higher than "average movie goer"!

When Battleship is one of the year's top grossing movies in Korea, there really is no accounting for taste.
In defence of Korean taste, you could say that they are in a special political and military situation that gives that sort of movie a distinctive salience.

I'd be happy with something that just makes enough profit to make sequels.
Is there going to be a Battleship sequel?
 

sunshadow21

Explorer
As for the original discussion, there will be overload and bloat somewhere; that's just part of developing and sustaining an rpg. The only real question is where, how quickly, and can they keep it contained enough so as not to become the defining feature of yet another of their rpg systems.

As for the discussion that it has evolved into, D&D could potentially develop into something greater than the rpg, but I have a really hard time seeing it with this company. Their novel line, which is the only current major line outside the rpgs as far as the general public is really concerned, still relies almost entirely on a 2E author and a 2e character, both of which where basically inherited by WotC when they first purchased the IP; also, most D&D novels aren't really sold as D&D novels, but rather as Forgotten Realm novels or Drizzt novels, weakening any recognizable ties to the overall D&D brand. Computer games have been a mixed game at best, managing to sustain the interest of the established fanbase, but not really doing a lot to reach out to the general public. The boardgames are successful, as one would expect from a Hasbro supported company, but board games are themselves a pretty niche product that aren't going to really strengthen the brand as a whole sufficiently to take weight off of any other part of the brand. The movies have been a nonstarter for over two decades now. On top of that, they aren't even as sure bet anymore in the rpg market after the difficulties they had with the launch and first several years of 4E; Next's launch will certainly be successful, but it's sustainability is still very much up in the air. The problem that WotC has with the D&D brand is that just because the pieces are there, there isn't much interest in the general public, or for that matter, in any of the individual niche markets the different products inhabit, to really tie them together into a singular brand recognition, due largely to the fact that none of them are really are that particularly relevant to each other or to anything outside of their individual markets. If, and this is a very big if, they can manage to get the public to see all of the parts as a single entity, they could do very well, but they have a lot of challenges to get to that point.

First, they need a single focal point for shaping and guiding the game and the brand; one of PF's strengths is that even if the core books are technically separate from Golarion, Golarion is still there to provide a solid and consistent background. Also, it is able to provide a consistent and steady background for the novels and adventure paths that are really at the heart of Paizo's business model. Without a similar consistent backdrop to develop official product around, including the core rules to a certain extent, it will be very hard to develop any kind of overall identity between the different products. Iron Man seems to be a popular comparison here as well, and it's worth noting that while details about Tony Stark, his origins, and his capabilities have changed over the years, the core superhero is still recognizable; same with all the other superheroes for the most part. From what I have seen, they seem to be trying very hard to setting up Next to be the unifying force, but given their mixed record of success in pulling together the different parts of the brand thus far, despite numerous attempts by numerous teams of people, and there is plenty of room for skepticism.

Second, after they have achieved that first concern, and they must overcome that first concern for the second to have fertile ground to work with, they need a breakout movie or a breakout video game as a showcase for the general public. If they have not yet succeeded in overcoming the first concern, than the second has no chance of success because without that unity of brand recognition, the general public will see what it has seen for so long now, an interesting enough brand that has some name value and a little bit of nostalgia, but no real clear message of what the brand is. A strong vehicle is great, but it's got to have a strong message and brand to carry for it to have any effect, which is why the few successes that WotC has had as been limited to niche markets and/or short term bursts of success.

Someone's characterization of D&D as a mishmash of Tolkien and a few other sources may be a bit harsh, but it's not entirely untruthful, although now, it's more a mishmash of tabletop rules, a handful of worlds that are recognizable to varying degrees to different markets, and a handful of characters that do a really good job of representing themselves, but not really the brand as a whole. If Hasbro and WotC put their head together and figure out how to get all the moving parts of the brand in the same direction at the same time, they have a lot of potential on their hands. My biggest concern is that they basically have to do it with Forgotten Realms, since there is practically no way to get the novels to budge to another world without losing a lot of their readership, and to say that Forgotten Realms since 2E has been a bit unstable in it's development and consistent execution of story lines is a vast understatement. More notably to me, even at it's most stable, it's a very polarizing world. Golarion or Greyhawk are not exactly beloved by everyone that uses them, but equally very few people despise them and refuse to learn anything about them; Forgotten Realms, on the other hand, has had a tendency to focus very sharply on a handful of elements that stir up as much dislike as favor, while the rest of the world remains frustratingly blurry except when it's spelled out to the smallest of details.

So, for me at least, they are already starting with one strike against them because Forgotten Realms has not demonstrated itself to be of much good for anything save Forgotten Realms; the overall D&D brand has yet to see a lot of benefit from it. Throw in another strike that they can't seem to sustain a single management team long enough to both lay the necessary groundwork for a successful implementation and keep them around to actually implement it rather than relying on people not steeped in that particular vision, and you are looking at a second strike. I have no doubt that they will manage to avoid a flat-out third strike, but the question is do they finally manage to knock it out of the park or do they just manage another weak hit that keeps them going, and if it's the latter, how weak of a hit will WotC and Hasbro tolerate and deem strong enough to keep the brand going to try again. A lot is banking on them getting movie rights back and making a strong movie based in whatever core world they decide to make the primary focus of what they need to be a long term success of Next; that's a lot of moving parts for a company that has not shown a history of being able to manage a lot of moving parts. Is it possible? Sure, but it's far from a sure bet.
 

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