D&D 3E/3.5 Does Magic of Incarnum and 3e's Tome of Magic and Tome of Battle have a place in 5e?

[Kobold Avenger]

Those 3 books represented attempts to experiment in 3e's lifetime.

I think everyone felt that Incarnum was too far out there in weirdness, most of Tome of Magic felt poorly implemented as remember how the True Namer was an example of why there should never be a skill-roll based power system. Though the Binder was well received. Tome of Battle was in many ways the precursor to 4e's power system, but I liked the system of martial magic and special techniques, and even the idea of the various schools of fighting styles like Desert Wind and White Raven.

But in 5e could any of the ideas from these books have more of a place? There isn't a Vestige Pact Warlock yet, which was 4e's attempt at the Binder, but I feel that could happen. Shadow magic was most like the existing system of magic, and there is a Shadow Sorcerer, but I feel there could be a wizard subclass that's somewhere between a Necromancer and Illusionist (or at least a Necromancer-like Wizard that's less about the undead), much like how the War Mage is between the Abjurer and Evoker.

Could there be Ways of the Desert Wind or Setting Sun or Diamond Mind Monks? Or ideas to have a more story-involved Battlemaster Fighter, since the Battlemaster seemed to be just a Fighter subclass for a rules system.

I don't know if anything can be done for Incarnum in 5e since it was such an experimental concept.

 

[TwoSix]

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing some novel approaches to mechanics layered with some new flavor for 5e, which is what I view as the primary conceit for all 3 books (and succeeded to varying degrees of success).

I don't think we need direct iterations of any of the concepts from those 3 books, with the possible exception of Binder.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I'm a bit disappointed the Eldritch Knight wasn't more like a desert wind sword-sage than just yet another spellcaster. Some magical maneuvers for the battlemaster might cut it.

Binder was amazing in concept and flavor, though seriously underpowered/flawed in execution. Gaining/losing armor/weapon proficiencies in particular was a PITA, since it compounded 3E's golf bag of weapons by adding armor to the mix. I wouldnt mind seeing them redone on a new chassis that dealt with short rest recharging binds.

 

[Stalker0]

The battle master is the spiritual successor to tome of battle, so more maneuvers would do the trick.

Martial initiate allows other classes to pick those up.

I could see a stance type feat that gave 3 different bonuses but you could only get 1 per round, and could then switch your stance to get a different benefit

 

[Ath-kethin]

I'd be down for some Tome of Battle type stuff, but Incarnum should be taken out back and shot.

Some actually-works-differently-from-other-casters options (like those in the Tome of Magic) would be cool, assuming they don't completely half-ass it (like in the Tome of Magic).

 

[Satyrn]

Could there be Ways of the Desert Wind or Setting Sun or Diamond Mind Monks? Or ideas to have a more story-involved Battlemaster Fighter, since the Battlemaster seemed to be just a Fighter subclass for a rules system.

I don't know if anything can be done for Incarnum in 5e since it was such an experimental concept.

Monks based on the disciplines would be neat.

I could totally see an fighter subclass like the eldritch knight but using maneuvers. Or start from scratch with a new class, with those disciplines as the subclass. Maybe even make 3 such classes to mirror the tome of battle, but I think the best 5e way would just be monk and fighter subclasses.


The binder was done by a third party publisher. I forget who.

The truenamer, as you say, was built on a mechanic that doesn't work, but the theme is certainly doable. I think iI'd try it as a bard subclass (though it would look very unlike the 3e true namer).

I'd do the shadowcaster as both a wizard subclass and a sorcerer subclass, just because there's lots of ground to cover with "shadow magic" and variety is nice.


As for incarnum, I never found it weird so much as boring. If I was to use it, I'd introduce the concept through a variety spells that formed the - what were they called? - effects. I might even be tempted to have them require concentration, unless they are bound to the chakra. How that rule would look, I don't know

 

[Gadget]

First of all, I think those source books did influence what came after, and indirectly, 5e. In particular I see the Warlock, Battlemaster and perhaps a little bit of sorcerer as influence by those books.

 

[Gladius Legis]

I don't know it'd be all that necessary, to tell the truth, mostly because, as people said above, those books have a major influence, direct or indirect, on what we already see in 5e. At-will cantrips. Battle Master and its maneuvers. Spells that work off weapon attacks, including the Paladin Smite spells, cantrips like Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, Absorb Elements, Zephyr Strike, Entangling Strike, and so forth. The fact that all 5e classes have an array of limited use abilities, some of which recharge on short rest and others on long rest. And so on.

Taking Tome of Battle, for example, the maneuvers those martial characters had made up for the horrible and ineffective way iterative multiple attacks worked in 3e, and the fact you couldn't take any more than a 5-foot step while making your full attack. But in 5e, a martial character can move as much as it can and wants to, and will still get to unleash all of its offense in that round. For example, a 5e Fighter (Battle Master) can move around, attack and make one enemy frightened for a turn while also knocking him prone, while still getting all the damage it's capable of getting in a round. A 3e martial character needed ToB's maneuvers as a workaround for its inherent shortcomings, while a 5e martial character has no such inherent shortcomings that need to be worked around to that extent.

 

[Iry]

Binder would make an excellent Warlock archetype.
True Namer would make an alright Bard archetype.
Totemist would make an alright Druid archetype.
Incarnate could be forced into a Sorcerer origin.

 

[RangerWickett]

Man, I need to tinker with 5e spellcasting, but my group is playing PF, so my brain is slotted into a different ruleset.