Does this Multiclassing Patch Work?

[Brother MacLaren]

I have no idea if 4E is going to fix multiclassing. But what exactly needs fixing? What does and doesn't work in 3.5? Spellcasting, right? Ftr/Rog combos seem viable mixed any which way.

The Ftr1/WizX, primarily a wizard, is pretty well balanced in the core rules. For a player who values flexibility, this character's increased options and durability make up for the loss of one-half of a spell level.

The FtrX/Wiz1, primarily a fighter, is a very viable build under the core rules, losing relatively little and gaining quite a bit. The Will save, the familiar's bonuses, True Strike, Feather Fall, and the ability to use wands all remain useful even in armor.

The FtrX/WizX is probably the least viable in the core rules. The Eldritch Knight class is pretty much essential here, allowing a Ftr/Wiz who is one spell level behind a pure wizard and 3 BAB behind a pure fighter.

What are the solutions other than using EK?
You can't give 1/2 of the levels in other classes as effective wizard levels. The Ftr8/Wiz1 would then become MUCH more powerful than a Ftr9.
You could give 1/2 of the levels in other classes as caster level increase, but by itself it won't be enough for the FtrX/WizX -- EK will still be a better patch.

Perhaps you could add 1/2 of other classes to your caster class level (both CL and spells per day), up to a maximum of your current level in the casting class.
In that case, Ftr7/Wiz1 would cast as Wiz2, Ftr4/Wiz4 would cast as Wiz6, and Ftr2/Wiz7 would cast as Wiz8. Looks about right. Ftr6/Wiz6 would be similar to Ftr1/Wiz5/EK6, though a little more martial and less magical; Ftr4/Wiz8 would give you a closer match to the EK.
Clr6/Wiz6 would cast as Clr9 and Wiz9, just as would the Clr3/Wiz3/MT6.

At higher levels, the patch starts to fall behind the PrCs, but I think it works better at low levels (e.g. Ftr2/Wiz2) and equally well at mid levels.

Thoughts? I'm sort of sketching out a BECM-3.5 hybrid, and I'd like to keep 3.5's multiclassing rules... just want to patch up the weak spots.

 

[scruffygrognard]

Thoughts? I'm sort of sketching out a BECM-3.5 hybrid, and I'd like to keep 3.5's multiclassing rules... just want to patch up the weak spots.

PrCs serve as a "patch" to fix multiclassing weaknesses for spellcasters.

To fix this without PrCs I'd probably "fix" the Practiced Spellcaster feat from Complete Divine that has some prereqs BUT allows for decent multiclassed casters.


Practiced Spellcaster [General]
Prerequisite
Int 13. BAB +3. Caster level 3

Benefit
When determining your spellcasting ability for one of your classes, you may add up to 1/2 of your class levels in 1 other class to your effective spellcaster level.

The amount of the bonus depends on the number of nonspellcasting class levels you have; you can add +1 for every 2 nonspellcasting class levels. This bonus may not exceed your spellcasting class levels.

--------------------------
Using this, a Fighter 3/Wizard 3 would cast spells as a 4th level wizard. A Fighter 5/Wizard 5 would cast spells as an 7th level wizard. A Fighter 10/Wizard 5 would cast spells as an 10th level wizard.

 

[Sylrae]

I help with the spellcasters in this way:

Spellcasting classes that multiclass may add one third of their total level in their other classes to their effective caster level for all spellcasting purposes (Spells Known/Spells per Day/Familiar&Animal Companion Level/Caster Level). For example a fighter 10/ wizard 10 will cast spells as a 13th level wizard, and a cleric 10/sorcerer 10 would cast spells as a 13th level cleric and a 13th level sorcerer. Prestige classes that improve the spellcasting ability of a class a character already has levels in, such as mystic theurge or eldritch knight, improve spellcasting normally and are not counted toward this benefit unless 1/3 is higher than the class’ improvement, in which case the 1/3 is used instead.

I've been doing it this way, so noncaster multiclassing doesnt make you totally screwed, but any prc DESIGNED to do it helps more, and you can still take the feat (the way I remember that feat is a straight up +4 that cant go above your ecl.)

your fix makes a straight fighter wizard better than some of the spellcasting prestige classes ive seen

 

[Darklone]

I want more multiclass feats like Swift Hunter or Ascetic Mage. Perhaps even multiple ones for the same combo.

 

[DreamChaser]

I allow the 1/2 of other levels toward the spell casting class but not for all features. Their caster level and spells per day increase but not their spells known / maximum spells. This requires adding in 1 feature not already included (max level).

So, a fighter 8, wizard 1 has 4/3/2/1 spell slots per day (not including bonus for ability or specialization) and a caster level of 5. His max spell level is 1st though. so is 2nd and 3rd level spells can be used to prepare cantrips and 1st levels (or use metamagic feats). Any spells beyond his starting spells are ones he learned on his own (ie paid for).

A cleric 5, wizard 5 has the spells per day of a 7th level in each class. Thus, 6/4/3/2/1 for the cleric and 4/4/3/2/1 for the wizard. Each of them is limited to 3rd level spells, however. He does not gain a 4th level domain spell, his familiar does not increase nor does his turn undead ability.

I find this works well to keep the power down but the versatility up. It also fits in well with the concept of the classes and experience. You can continue to practice the magic that you already know but only when you're actually focusing on it can you advance to new spells.

DC

 

[Kmart Kommando]

I allow the 1/2 of other levels toward the spell casting class but not for all features. Their caster level and spells per day increase but not their spells known / maximum spells. This requires adding in 1 feature not already included (max level).

So, a fighter 8, wizard 5 has 4/3/2/1 spell slots per day (not including bonus for ability or specialization). His max spell level is 1st though. so is 2nd and 3rd level spells can be used to prepare cantrips and 1st levels (or use metamagic feats). Any spells beyond his starting spells are ones he learned on his own (ie paid for).

A cleric 5, wizard 5 has the spells per day of a 7th level in each class. Thus, 6/4/3/2/1 for the cleric and 4/4/3/2/1 for the wizard. Each of them is limited to 3rd level spells, however. He does not gain a 4th level domain spell, his familiar does not increase nor does his turn undead ability.

I find this works well to keep the power down but the versatility up. It also fits in well with the concept of the classes and experience. You can continue to practice the magic that you already know but only when you're actually focusing on it can you advance to new spells.

DC

so, the fighter8/wizard5 can't cast his 3rd or second level spells, because he has too many non-caster levels?
going by your second example, he would be casting up to 3rd level spells, and have slots as 4(0)/4(1st)/4(2nd)/3(3rd)/2(4th)/1(5th) and an effective caster level of 9th. unless there was a typo i missed.

 

[Arkhandus]

....yeah DreamChaser, I think you messed up your example in some way, cuz it doesn't make sense.

Was your first example supposed to be Fighter 8/Wizard 1, who sort of casts like a Wizard 5 but still only has 1st-level spells known and such?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I have no idea if 4E is going to fix multiclassing. But what exactly needs fixing? What does and doesn't work in 3.5? Spellcasting, right? Ftr/Rog combos seem viable mixed any which way.

There are a couple of simple problems with multiclassing in 3e. The first which you seem to be most interested in is the fact that casting classes, and any other class with a set of unique abilities which are dependant on class level, just don't mix well with other classes. There are a few ways to deal with this problem; you could add 1/2 non-associated class levels to caster level which is nice and simple. You could rely on PrCs, which a lot of people seem to enjoy but I've always felt PrCs are a very artificial solution to this problem, and also not what PrCs were ever intended to do in the game. My solution of preference is to invent new base classes that combine the class abilities that a player wants, such as my Arcane Trickster, Arcane Warrior and Mystic Theurge base classes. Now a player doesn't even have to multiclass to get that unique combination of abilities they want.

The second problem with multiclassing is a bit uglier. Some players love to sift through the dozens of books looking for the best base and prestige classes and then come up with really wonky builds like Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Rogue 2/Monk 1/Dervish 1/Your Mom's Doorman 2...you get the idea. While it is technically legal by the rules and since all their class levels are within 1 level of each other so the character doesn't take any XP penalties, you can see how a lot of DMs don't like this 'cherry picking' strategy. A lot of DMs discourage cherry picking by requiring solid in-game reasons for a character to multiclass, which works well for a lot of games. My own solution to this problem is a bit more direct, because I don't like cherry picking either but I also don't like looking over my players' shoulders. So my rule is that all races have "any" as their favored class, but you can only have two base classes without the 20% XP penalty, regardless of how you level build. I also severely limit PrCs to ones that players have no reason to cherry pick from.

Thoughts? I'm sort of sketching out a BECM-3.5 hybrid, and I'd like to keep 3.5's multiclassing rules... just want to patch up the weak spots.

What's BECM?

 

[Brother MacLaren]

What's BECM?

Basic-Expert-Companion-Master's. The version of D&D I learned on, starting with the Moldvay "Red Book" of 1981 (the BECM series actually began with the 1983 Mentzer version, which had almost identical rules). Pretty much my favorite version of the game.

BECM has TONS of "dead levels" and that's a good thing. Also has slower leveling after level 7 or so. The focus is not on gaining new special abilities, since there really aren't any (no feats). As I've said before, players in my BECM game never looked forward to getting Special Ability X in the next few sessions -- they looked forward to buying a boat or building a keep.

BECM doesn't really allow for multiclassing. Elf is a class, not a race, and elves are fighter/wizards with a maximum level of 10 (which would take a couple of years to get to). Other than that, nothing. Even if there was multiclassing, there'd be little cherrypicking since there are no real special abilities. The spell list is much slimmer, with very few buffing spells and very few clerical damage spells. There are no splatbooks -- the only accessory books I ever saw were campaign settings and modules. Your damage didn't change round-to-round -- the fighter in my campaign always did 1d8+3 (+2 Str, +1 magic) damage. All ability scores have a hard cap at 18. Monsters don't have ability scores.

I'd like to keep BECM's simplicity and speed of play. I'd like to introduce some of 3.5's mechanics, such as the round system and actions (i.e. move action and standard action), which were a little bit awkward in BECM. Possibly the skill system (otherwise, everything is roll a d20 under your ability score.) I like 3.5's manuevers (Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush) but some of them such as Bull Rush only work if you are using minis, a battlemat, and precise movement (which slows down gameplay). I'm unsure about including spell DCs and 3.5 saves. I could allow 3.5's race-class combination (so you could be a dwarven thief or an elven fighter) with only slight modifications to the BECM rules.

I'm unsure about allowing multiclassing. If it were really essential for players' enjoyment of the game, I'd have to include it. But is the flexibility in character concepts worth the risk that the game will become more about character build optimization?

 

[DreamChaser]

Sorry...you're right

So, a fighter 8, wizard 1 has 4/3/2/1 spell slots per day (not including bonus for ability or specialization) and a caster level of 5. His max spell level is 1st though. so is 2nd and 3rd level spells can be used to prepare cantrips and 1st levels (or use metamagic feats). Any spells beyond his starting spells are ones he learned on his own (ie paid for).


I was trying to use your same example.

DC