D&D (2024) How to fix multiclassing?

[UngeheuerLich]

You played it, the GM needs to run the game for all of their players. That includes aquaman getting "plenty of meaningful moments" and disguising when they are a job for aquaman so nobody notices or mentions that the GM is doing just that. 2e style & PF2 style feat based variants mitigate these issues better than 5e's.


If a GM's players are making build decisions for these kind of reasons it sounds like they are running a wildly different game sporting a level of knock down dragout pvp than any I've ever heard of. Very few monsters cast wall/cube of force making it an extreme edge case.

No it's not just a warlock thing. Warlock was rarely if ever even considered for great multiclass builds back in 3.5 yet it too had pages & pages of great MC builds. The big difference though is that the GM had many more tools & dials they could massage to discretely adjust the relative power between players when needed.

I am really confused, why you bring up 3.5...
... I mean, if every broken build in 5e involves the warlock and eldritch blast, it seems that the warlock is the offender, not multiclass in general.

And going from your comments, your game is just about beating a big bag of hps... probably not, but it is a bit much to draw conclusions from a few statements about other people's games.

 

[tetrasodium]

I am really confused, why you bring up 3.5...
... I mean, if every broken build in 5e involves the warlock and eldritch blast, it seems that the warlock is the offender, not multiclass in general.

And going from your comments, your game is just about beating a big bag of hps... probably not, but it is a bit much to draw conclusions from a few statements about other people's games.

You keep saying that MC is only an issue in 5e because of eldritch blast so there is no issue with MC in general. Why would you be confused when it's demonstrated that there also were MC builds that were much better than other builds back in 3.5 when EB was not an awesome MC dip thing it is in 5e?

 

[mellored]

I would be fine with all 3 ways of multiclassing.
3.5 style allowing dips
2e style dual class, up to level 13/13 or so.
And grab a feat(ure) style.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You keep saying that MC is only an issue in 5e because of eldritch blast so there is no issue with MC in general. Why would you be confused when it's demonstrated that there also were MC builds that were much better than other builds back in 3.5 when EB was not an awesome MC dip thing it is in 5e?

Because 3.5 and 5e are differen games...

 

[Clint_L]

I don't worry too much about a few arguably overpowered combinations. In a game of decent complexity, optimizers are gonna find the ways to optimize. Whatever "fix" you bring in will just create new opportunities to optimize in another way.

And that's kind of a feature, not a flaw. For some folks, optimizing is part of the fun. Not for me, I let my players know up front that it is not welcome and I have no problem altering RAW to nix that gameplay at my table. But that's just my table, and if another table loves playing tricked out combinations, then who am I to say that they are wrong? Your fun is your fun.

That's not to say that you can't tweak things here and there when they are obviously busted and not working as intended. But overall the 5e system seems to work pretty well, and whatever you replace it with (which won't happen for OneD&D anyway) is unlikely to be better and could well be worse.

 

[tetrasodium]

Because 3.5 and 5e are differen games...

There is probably close to zero chance that one d&d is incapable of having winner dip classes & subclasses if multiclass rules are just as permissive. Even if the initial PHB imostly free of them it's only a matter of time

 

[UngeheuerLich]

There is probably close to zero chance that one d&d is incapable of having winner dip classes & subclasses if multiclass rules are just as permissive. Even if the initial PHB imostly free of them it's only a matter of time

I think there is no point in arguing any further.
By that argumentation we can't have feats or spells or classes not even skills or stats...

I would always take the chamce of having a winner class to not lose out on what is very fun for me.
Even with warlock, multiclassing is comparatively very balanced in 5e. So I am not as fearful as you are.

 

[CreamCloud0]

IMO I’d make a character require a prerequisite feat in order to multiclass to any given class, it would provide all the proficiencies granted by multiclassing regularly (I think multiclassing in general/this feat should also provide one additional skill proficiency from the chosen class) as a ‘level 0’ bonus.

This level of investment would cut down on dipping or at least make a player consider the decision a bit more ahead of time, weighing it against another feat or ASI and with level 1 feats your ability to multiclass wouldn’t even be restricted to after 4th level.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

IMO I’d make a character require a prerequisite feat in order to multiclass to any given class, it would provide all the proficiencies granted by multiclassing regularly (I think multiclassing in general/this feat should also provide one additional skill proficiency from the chosen class) as a ‘level 0’ bonus.

This level of investment would cut down on dipping or at least make a player consider the decision a bit more ahead of time, weighing it against another feat or ASI and with level 1 feats your ability to multiclass wouldn’t even be restricted to after 4th level.

You can't probably give all proficiencies, but some.
Probably just have each class have certain requirements like armor and weapon training or some cantrips.

 

[CreamCloud0]

You can't probably give all proficiencies, but some.
Probably just have each class have certain requirements like armor and weapon training or some cantrips.

Sorry was i unclear or am I misunderstanding you? i was referring to the proficiencies that multiclassing into a class will automatically provide you, suggesting that taking a class’s multiclass feat would provide you with those proficiencies (but none of the class’s 1st level features) i was also suggesting it would provide a choice of one of the class’s base skill proficiencies to compensate slightly the cost of using a feat (class’s that already provides proficiencies would just provide one more)