Doors: Too hard to break, too easy to chop

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I guess I'm just confused as to why, on the one hand, doors are so hard to break down, which suggests they're supposed to be significant obstacles, but on the other hand, they're easy to chop down, which suggests they aren't supposed to be significant obstacles. It just seems like a contradiction. Unless the designers only meant them to be obstacles if the PCs are weaponless...

Simple. Hacking open a door is easy, but not quick or stealthy.
If you're in a prison, they don't want to make breaking down a door unarmed easy. (Never put a monk in prison; not only can they break doors, but they often have ranks in Escape Artist.)

 

[Grog]

Simple. Hacking open a door is easy, but not quick or stealthy.

But, according to the D&D rules, it is quick. That's my whole point. Even a strong wooden door can be chopped down pretty easily in one round. I can't see it ever taking more than two or three rounds, unless the character attempting it is really weak and/or only has a small weapon like a dagger or a shortsword.

 

[Archer]

Doors don't really stand a chance against a portable ram. +4 guaranteed for using one. Portable ram with take down a door faster than hacking at it if it has hardness 10.

 

[hong]

But it's very possible for the PCs to hack a door down in one round. Once a fighter gets two attacks, it'd probably only take him one round to chop the door down.

A fighter with 2 attacks is 6th level, and at the limits of what would be considered realistic.

I break down D&D levels thusly:

1-5: real world, grim 'n gritty. People bleed and die, including PCs.
6-10: heroic, larger than life; you take the hits, but keep on going. PCs can fly, teleport, kill things with a touch, and raise them from the dead.
11-15: superheroic. You're famous throughout the land.
16-20: 4-colour. You're famous throughout the planes.

 

[Pbartender]

Someone commented that a kick is an unarmed attack against the door. That's a good idea. Combine it with the Str check, and you have your heroic "kick in the door" imagery.

Nope... It doesn't do you any unless you have Imp. Unarmed Strike.

Read the rules. Objects are immune to subdual damage.

Maybe you could reduce the DC of the "Force open" check by 1 point for each point of damage suffered by the door. That way, the door would wear down under repeated kicks. Or you could lay a few axe chops into the wood that surrounds the lock (damage the door), then kick at that spot, smashing the surrounding wood and leaving nothing to hold the lock in place (succeed at the force open check).

But that's house rules stuff. Me, I think the check DCs as written are a good guideline.

Not really House Rules...

Again, read the rules. If the object has sustained 50% of its hp in damage, then the break DC goes down by 2.

Besides, consider this: A hewn stone wall (a castle wall) is 3' thick, has a hardness of 8, 540 hitpoints, and a break DC of 50. Should I be able to push that wall over, if I can inflict 40 hp of damage to it (less than 10% of its hp)?

A good house rule would be to incur additional DC reductions of 2 at 25% and 10% hp.

 

[hong]

Nope... It doesn't do you any unless you have Imp. Unarmed Strike.

Read the rules. Objects are immune to subdual damage.

So you take the -4 to your attack and convert it to normal damage. You still miss on a 1.

 

[Pbartender]

So you take the -4 to your attack and convert it to normal damage. You still miss on a 1.

Sure, but you'll need one hell of a Str bonus, or a really good Power Attack to overcome the Hardess with any regularity or effectiveness.

You might as well just Take 20 on the Bash check.

 

[hong]

Sure, but you'll need one hell of a Str bonus, or a really good Power Attack to overcome the Hardess with any regularity or effectiveness.

Actually, an unarmed 4th level fighter with 18 Str and Power Attack can bash through a metal door (hardness 10). Not exactly hard to find. A wooden door (hardness 5) only needs a 2nd level fighter and/or 14 Str.

 

[Pbartender]

Actually, an unarmed 4th level fighter with 18 Str and Power Attack can bash through a metal door (hardness 10).

+0 (+4 Str - 4 subdual conversion, all BAB into PA) to hit, 1d3+8 damage. So, assuming he hits every time, he'll do an average of one point of damage a round... It will take him about 6 minutes (60 rounds) to punch down that door.

If he had a portable battering ram, he could Bash it down in 2 minutes (20 rounds).

Not exactly hard to find. A wooden door (hardness 5) only needs a 2nd level fighter and/or 14 Str.

-2 (+2 Str - 4 subdual conversion, all BAB into PA) to hit, 1d3+4 damage. Again, assuming he hits every time, he'll do an average of one point of damage a round... It will take him about 2 minutes (20 rounds) to punch down that door.

With a friend helping, he could Bash it down in about the same time.

 

[coyote6]

As an aside...

+0 (+4 Str - 4 subdual conversion, all BAB into PA) to hit, 1d3+8 damage.

What bugs me is that if you give this guy a club (an ordinary wooden club, costing 0 gp), he can bash through that castle wall someone mentioned upthread in a bit more than 15 minutes. Spend a few gp and give him a greatsword, and the wall's down in 6 minutes.

Castles really are kind of pointless in D&D.