Dragon 390: Eladrin article

[MrMyth]

Yeah, the problem with that is it doesn't really matter. If it is OP for heroic then it is OP period in general. Making overpowered stuff only available at high level doesn't fix it. There can be certain types of exceptions to that but most static benefits really should balance at any level.

That's not true at all. Being surrounded by difficult terrain at Heroic levels will be an issue for every enemy you fight - at Epic levels, though, you have plenty of monsters who teleport or have other tricks up their sleeves. You have Epic Destiny powers or consumable items that completely change the landscape of a battle.

I think this is the very picture of something that would be balanced at Epic levels but is too strong when compared to Heroic familiars. Hopefully it will get fixed in the compiled release!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's not true at all. Being surrounded by difficult terrain at Heroic levels will be an issue for every enemy you fight - at Epic levels, though, you have plenty of monsters who teleport or have other tricks up their sleeves. You have Epic Destiny powers or consumable items that completely change the landscape of a battle.

I think this is the very picture of something that would be balanced at Epic levels but is too strong when compared to Heroic familiars. Hopefully it will get fixed in the compiled release!

Well, yes, I think difficult terrain is a LOT less likely to be significant at epic. Notice I did say there are things that are exceptions to the general rule. Other stuff like a flat skill bonus is just equally good at all levels though, which is fine unless it is OP, in which case making it epic or paragon only doesn't help.

Before I go making wild assumptions about your feelings on game balance... can you phrase your thought here differently? I'm not tactful enough to phrase my knee-jerk reaction well.

Well, I'd say don't have one then, but given that you didn't post one I can only say thank you kindly! . Flat bonuses, if they are out of line, don't get less out of line at higher tiers. Obviously the question is about specific benefits and if they're unbalanced or not, which is another question (though it seems some posters have concerns about that). I was only responding to the "they should be paragon and epic options only", to which "that doesn't necessarily fix things" (to paraphrase myself) seemed like a reasonable comment.

I really like the material. I'm not even entirely sure it IS unbalanced, but I am fairly sure that some elements of it won't be less powerful at higher tiers, that's all.

 

[MerricB]

The faerie dragonling and coure attendant (which were based on 1e MM2 faerie dragons and the old coure eladrin respectively) were supposed to be paragon and epic tier familiars, but that was removed for some reason. I'm not sure if it was intentional or not.

I'm sure it's intentional: they've said that in Essentials, they're getting rid of "tier" requirements.

Cheers!

 

[Shroomy]

I'm sure it's intentional: they've said that in Essentials, they're getting rid of "tier" requirements.

Cheers!

Yep, I was chatting with Steve Winter today and he told me that they wanted to make the familiars available in the heroic tier so that they were more usable right out of the gate. That said, we're looking for suggestions to bring them more in line with other heroic tier familiars (the more the merrier). IMO, I don't think the grig needs much adjustment, though I do agree that its active benefit is pretty good (I just think that they'll be squashed fairly quickly in most cases). For the faerie dragonling, I think that limiting dazzling breath to one enemy would probably bring it more in line, and for the coure attendant, dropping the difficult terrain aura and the added defenses while in feylight form could be a way to go. If anyone has any suggestions, let us know, either here (and I'll pass it along) or over on the WotC forums.

BTW, thanks everyone for the feedback. I enjoyed writing this article and I hope that some of the stuff from this article will feature in your games.

 

[Klaus]

Grig -> Make the active benefit once per encounter, like Arcane Power's dragonling. Could scale with tier (2/encounter at paragon, at will at epic). Another option would be to change "immobilized" to "slowed", as enemies have to dance instead of walk. That would allow the power to stay as is.

Coure -> I actually think this one is fine. Enemies have the option of "wasting" an attack on the coure and get rid of it. Plus, if the enemy moves, you still have to spend an action to move the coure.

 

[mneme]

I think part of the issue is that only a small fraction of familiars are mechanically all that great. There are defense familiars (eg, the +2 skill, +1 language, +5 to one or two resistances) which are pretty nifty, and scouting familiars, and the ever-popular disembodied hand type. But most familiars (particularly at the Heroic level) have mediocre passive benefits and either no real active benefit (eg, a defensive benefit with no reason to make them active) or a weak strikerish encounter power -- none of which is really worth the feat.

 

[QuietBrowser]

I'm really sorry for the thread necromancy, but... my copy of Dragon #390 doesn't list the Faerie Dragonling at all. It only has the Fiddling Grig and Coure Attendant in it. Did they remove the Faerie Dragonling when they compiled the articles for this issue or something?

 

[MwaO]

I'm really sorry for the thread necromancy, but... my copy of Dragon #390 doesn't list the Faerie Dragonling at all. It only has the Fiddling Grig and Coure Attendant in it. Did they remove the Faerie Dragonling when they compiled the articles for this issue or something?

Not sure, but think its ability to establish radiant vulnerability got it removed. Probably ironically because the ability was supposed to be a Paragon tier familiar, but simultaneously, they decided to stop giving familiars tiers...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not sure, but think its ability to establish radiant vulnerability got it removed. Probably ironically because the ability was supposed to be a Paragon tier familiar, but simultaneously, they decided to stop giving familiars tiers...

Familiars had tiers? I sure missed that one! lol. It must have been a really brief experiment, because AP came out fairly early in the big rush of 4e supplements. Honestly I would have thought it would be rather cool if they DID have higher tier familiars, but I suppose that kind of thing might be better left to a PP or something.

 

[MwaO]

Familiars had tiers? I sure missed that one! lol. It must have been a really brief experiment, because AP came out fairly early in the big rush of 4e supplements. Honestly I would have thought it would be rather cool if they DID have higher tier familiars, but I suppose that kind of thing might be better left to a PP or something.

Yeah, Dragon 374 had a range of different tier'd familiars. Disembodied Hand = Heroic, Rakshasa Claw = Paragon, Chaos Shard = Epic and so on...