Dwarf and poison.

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Dwarven poison immunity will be the first thing I houserule and I'm amazed that it made it into the game. People say it's equivalent to Elven immunity to sleep and charms but I don't think that's true because IME poison is more common than sleep/charm effects, and I STILL believe that elven immunity is a bad idea.

The problem is poison should not be common. It should be a corner case that a few monsters and classes employ.
Immunity should not be presented to players at level 1 for just about anything, unless they're playing some oddball race that logically should be immune to something.

Dwarves are an oddball race. They are dwarves. They are 4 and a half feet tall but weight more than humans. They can live over 100 years easy and commonly go up to 200 years. They can wear armor like regular clothes.
I thought we learned this game design lesson a while ago towards the end of 3.5 - immunity is a bad idea. We end up having to justify the corner cases or find hand-waiving workarounds ("well the god of poison can poison a dwarf because - because they're a god! I guess?"), and it ends up limiting the stories we can tell. Where in the lore have dwarves been prototypically presented as altogether immune to poison? I can't find that anywhere I look in fantasy fiction. Why are we throwing this in instead of just a hefty +10 or advantage on poison saves? That would be quite useful but still make poison dangerous.

I remember all the lore about dwarves resisting poison in older edition and they failed poison saves ALL THE TIME! Dwarven poison resistance is a joke in older edition. An utter joke. What is the point of poison resistance if if fails so often and barely does jack squat.


Furthermore, there's the issue of the dwarven poison immunity leading to darves abusing their immunity by utilizing poisons to a great extent - that surely clashes with the view of a lot of people and how dwarves "work".
Makes sense. Red dragons and demons can use fire spells willy nilly as they are immune. Dwarves can break poison by spamming poison attacks... doesnt work on undead, demons, devils, angels, elementals, and other dwarves though.

My games and worlds often employ poison - rendering a core race simply immune to it may negatively impact my games and my playstyle. For a game that's supposedly all about unification - WotC seems to be intent on including a lot of pointlessly divisive stuff.
You might have to houserule as you use poison a lot. The base assumption is low-moderate use of poisons. Only rogues, assassins, and poisonous monsters use them often.


---

Somewhere in an alternate parallel universe. The Dog Universe. Someone is upset that Humans have chocolate immunity and not +10 to chocolate saves.

I haven't failed a chocolate save yet, baby. :cool:
Mmmmm... immunity.
Suck on that, dogs. ;)
 

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FinalSonicX

First Post
The problem is poison should not be common. It should be a corner case that a few monsters and classes employ.

The Assassin (and not just classed assassins, but would-be assassins who poison the king's food!), Rogues in general, Spiders, Scorpions and other vermin, Drow and other intelligent evil races, Some fighters and rangers, Various traps, and Naga. These examples of people or things that use poison are not what I would consider "corner cases".

Dwarves are an oddball race. They are dwarves. They are 4 and a half feet tall but weight more than humans. They can live over 100 years easy and commonly go up to 200 years. They can wear armor like regular clothes.

Dwarves are hardly what I'd call an oddball race. I was thinking more along the lines of setting-specific races like Warforged, or players who play certain monster races (a theoretical fire-elemental PC should be immune to fire, of course!).

I remember all the lore about dwarves resisting poison in older edition and they failed poison saves ALL THE TIME! Dwarven poison resistance is a joke in older edition. An utter joke. What is the point of poison resistance if if fails so often and barely does jack squat.

Dwarves have always resisted poison - that's a major difference from saying dwarves are immune. Giving dwarves a +10 bonus or advantage would represent resistance well while still permitting failure.

Furthermore, we aren't talking about an older edition here. Even if you think previous editions had pitiful dwarven poison resistance - we can fix it without "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". How do you think that advantage or a +10 bonus would result in dwarven poison resistance being "an utter joke"?

Makes sense. Red dragons and demons can use fire spells willy nilly as they are immune. Dwarves can break poison by spamming poison attacks... doesnt work on undead, demons, devils, angels, elementals, and other dwarves though.

The problem is that undead, demons, devils, and angels aren't always involved in an adventure or campaign plot. In an adventure without those creatures, a dwarf should optimally be using poison quite a bit. These aren't dragons or demons we're talking about - this is a core player race that we don't want "spamming poison as they are immune".

You might have to houserule as you use poison a lot. The base assumption is low-moderate use of poisons. Only rogues, assassins, and poisonous monsters use them often.

This edition is supposedly about unification. Why should I be forced to houserule something to fix something that wasn't in any edition of D&D I'm aware of before? It has always been resistance, if I'm not mistaken here. Immunity limits the stories I can tell - now I can't say the dwarven king was killed by poison, the assassins I send to fight the dwarven party member are going to have to rely on martial force and spells alone, and the dangerous wood elves with their fey poisons can't stop the dwarves from waltzing in and chopping down trees.

You see where I'm coming from here? The immunity is unprecedented, uncalled for, and it is a non-inclusive racial ability. It locks off whole storylines and settings and it BEGS for houseruling.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The Assassin (and not just classed assassins, but would-be assassins who poison the king's food!), Rogues in general, Spiders, Scorpions and other vermin, Drow and other intelligent evil races, Some fighters and rangers, Various traps, and Naga. These examples of people or things that use poison are not what I would consider "corner cases".
Is every trap a poison trap?
Do all rogues use poison weapons?
Are vermin is every dungeon?
Are drow in every war band, bandit crew, or slaver party?
Dwarves are hardly what I'd call an oddball race. I was thinking more along the lines of setting-specific races like Warforged, or players who play certain monster races (a theoretical fire-elemental PC should be immune to fire, of course!).
I get it.

You see dwarves as shorter humans with strong stomachs, right?

Dwarves have always resisted poison - that's a major difference from saying dwarves are immune. Giving dwarves a +10 bonus or advantage would represent resistance well while still permitting failure.

Furthermore, we aren't talking about an older edition here. Even if you think previous editions had pitiful dwarven poison resistance - we can fix it without "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". How do you think that advantage or a +10 bonus would result in dwarven poison resistance being "an utter joke"?

A +10 bonus even defies your logic. Poison that beats a +10 bonus with a Con bonus would have to be a very powerful poison.... a DM creeated poison that bypasses dwarven immunity perhaps?
The problem is that undead, demons, devils, and angels aren't always involved in an adventure or campaign plot. In an adventure without those creatures, a dwarf should optimally be using poison quite a bit. These aren't dragons or demons we're talking about - this is a core player race that we don't want "spamming poison as they are immune".

Undead, demons, devils, elementals, and angels aren't always involved in an adventure or campaign plot.
Poison always involved in an adventure or campaign plot.

Your games are weird.
This edition is supposedly about unification. Why should I be forced to houserule something to fix something that wasn't in any edition of D&D I'm aware of before? It has always been resistance, if I'm not mistaken here. Immunity limits the stories I can tell - now I can't say the dwarven king was killed by poison, the assassins I send to fight the dwarven party member are going to have to rely on martial force and spells alone, and the dangerous wood elves with their fey poisons can't stop the dwarves from waltzing in and chopping down trees.
If an assassin thinks he can bypass the dwaf king's poison resistance, his resistance must suck, huh.

If the wood elves think their fey poisons can beat the dwarves without being specially engineered to do so, their resistance must suck, huh.

You see where I'm coming from here? The immunity is unprecedented, uncalled for, and it is a non-inclusive racial ability. It locks off whole storylines and settings and it BEGS for houseruling.

I see.

You want base races to be modified humans and not fantasy races who are different from humanity. Many people have that view.

I find it boring.
 

FinalSonicX

First Post
Is every trap a poison trap?
Do all rogues use poison weapons?
Are vermin is every dungeon?
Are drow in every war band, bandit crew, or slaver party?

Many traps are poison traps.
Many rogues use poison weapons.
Giant spiders are pretty common in many adventures I've run, read, or played. Snakes too.
Drow are fairly common in certain areas of the underdark - if you're playing in Faerun.

I get it.

You see dwarves as shorter humans with strong stomachs, right?

No, I most certainly do not. I think you're making assumptions about my perceptions. I think that dwarves are resistant to poison and by making them immune WotC have effectively completely changed the nature of dwarves from what they have been previously. 5e is supposed to be inclusive, changing things like this without a good reason is non-inclusive. D&D needs to support a range of playstyles, stories, and settings.

A +10 bonus even defies your logic. Poison that beats a +10 bonus with a Con bonus would have to be a very powerful poison.... a DM creeated poison that bypasses dwarven immunity perhaps?

the +10 was an example, but let's say that we have a Dwarven Rogue (because that poison immunity plus stonecunning makes for a sweet Rogue if you ask me) with a con of 10. That means we get a +10 bonus to our poison save. If we don't have advantage and the poison is a DC 15 poison, then we have to roll a 5 or higher to save. That means the dwarf still has a 20% chance of failure. The same dwarf with an 18 con only fails on a 1. So it's not flat immunity - like the rest of the game it's a sliding scale. Sometimes you save, sometimes you fail. Some fail more than others, but statistically all dwarves will do better than non-dwarves. If we grant advantage, then it certainly doesn't make the roll trivial, but it still makes for a good resistance.

So ignoring the fact that my +10 was a random example (it could just as easily be a +8, a +6, or any other number), why do you think my suggestions are inferior to flat immunity.

Undead, demons, devils, elementals, and angels aren't always involved in an adventure or campaign plot.
Poison always involved in an adventure or campaign plot.

Your games are weird.

I'll ackknowledge that undead aren't really uncommon in my games, and demons and devils show up sometimes. That said, poisons are still employed by a large portion of my NPCs and monsters. I don't think my games are terribly weird.

If an assassin thinks he can bypass the dwaf king's poison resistance, his resistance must suck, huh.

If the wood elves think their fey poisons can beat the dwarves without being specially engineered to do so, their resistance must suck, huh.

Perhaps the dwarven king knows an attempt will be made on his life and doubles the guard? The lowly servant of the king feels as though a direct attack would spell suicide, but maybe no one would notice him lacing the food with arsenic? It's a bit of a gamble, but it's better than getting killed by guards. The dwarf can still have good resistances and the plan can still work and the story can still be told.

Resistances don't have to suck for it to be possible to say "long ago the Dwarf King was poisoned to death by one of his trusted servants". A CHANCE of failure is all that is required to make poison still relevant and still provide the opportunity to engage in these kinds of stories. Or do you disagree?

I see.

You want base races to be modified humans and not fantasy races who are different from humanity. Many people have that view.

I find it boring.

That's not what I want. I want immunity to an entire category of damage and effects to be a little bit harder to grab than just picking a specific race. I want to be able to tell the stories I want to tell and run games like I currently do with 5e without having to houserule and explain all of this to every new player who shows up expecting to play his poison-immune dwarven assassin.
 


slobster

Hero
I'll ackknowledge that undead aren't really uncommon in my games, and demons and devils show up sometimes. That said, poisons are still employed by a large portion of my NPCs and monsters. I don't think my games are terribly weird.

And since when are weird games a bad thing? I love weird.
 

Andor

First Post
That's not what I want. I want immunity to an entire category of damage and effects to be a little bit harder to grab than just picking a specific race. I want to be able to tell the stories I want to tell and run games like I currently do with 5e without having to houserule and explain all of this to every new player who shows up expecting to play his poison-immune dwarven assassin.

"I want WotC to use my houserules so that I don't have to print them out myself." is not really a valid crticisim for my money.

Yes, a dwarf rogue is immune to a poisoned needle. A poisoned dagger still makes him say "Ouch, I've been stuck with a dagger." however. And while he may be immune, if he sets off a poison trap because he couldn't be arsed disarming something as harmless as poison then he'll be all alone in the dungeon when the poison gas kills the rest of the party won't he.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
[MENTION=63787]FinalSonicX[/MENTION]

I think the difference from me and you is:

1) I see poison as an uncommon occurrence. You see it as Common.

2) I want races to be drastically different with major racial features with no problem with DM fiat providing bypasses. You don't like this.

It's okay though.

The 60 seconds after reading the immunity on the sheet, I imagined a quest where the heroes would have to intercept a caravan carrying an alchemist researching Dwarfslayer, the only poison potent enough to affect a dwarf.
 

FinalSonicX

First Post
"I want WotC to use my houserules so that I don't have to print them out myself." is not really a valid crticisim for my money.

I think it's a perfectly valid criticism when it's A. never been a part of D&D before - to my knowledge and B. completely limits my ability to tell the stories I want to tell. Once again, I thought the whole damn point of this edition was unification?

Yes, a dwarf rogue is immune to a poisoned needle. A poisoned dagger still makes him say "Ouch, I've been stuck with a dagger." however. And while he may be immune, if he sets off a poison trap because he couldn't be arsed disarming something as harmless as poison then he'll be all alone in the dungeon when the poison gas kills the rest of the party won't he.

If I have a lithe assassin whose main ploy is and always has been poisons (and not needles or daggers or other direct damage-dealing specialties) like a spy or something, then that person is completely incapable of harming a dwarf, regardless of level even!

and not every trap is a poison gas trap. If it isn't an AOE poison effectively, there's no danger to the dwarven rogue from a laundry list of classic poison traps I've seen throughout my years playing D&D.
 

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