Eadric et. al. (The Paladin and his Friends).

[Cheiromancer]

I'd be worried about getting that high an intelligence. What if there is some aspect of reality that Man Was Not Meant To Know? You'd suddenly know all about It (whatever It is), and immediately go utterly and irretrievably insane (and probably totally evil, too).

That would be bad!

If they didn't go insane, an interesting project for the wizards to undertake would be to make works of art. Think of the masterpieces they could produce with a simple fabricate spell! After all, only one of them can use the Web of Motes at a time, right? It would be wise for them to otherwise use the time productively.

Is there a formula relating the craft check result to the value of a piece? If masterwork is DC 20, what would DC 80 be?

 

[The Lone Badger]

I'd be worried about getting that high an intelligence. What if there is some aspect of reality that Man Was Not Meant To Know?

Then it's Mostin's job to know it. I mean, something like that would only encourage him to cast it.

Is there any reason Nwm won't let the spell be used against Grazz't?

 

[Lela]

Then it's Mostin's job to know it. I mean, something like that would only encourage him to cast it.

Is there any reason Nwm won't let the spell be used against Grazz't?

And insanity is definitally more of a skill than a worry where he's concerned.

 

[Olive]

Is there any reason Nwm won't let the spell be used against Grazz't?

Which spell? The Graz'zt spell? Because he doesn't want a demon price bound within the Green, as he said.

 

[Greybar]

Consider that Nwm will also be in the 20 foot radius.
He isn't used to the expanding intellect feeling, and might be more vulnerable than the others. To take the opposite position, Nwm's higher Wisdom may make him one of the few who can take it.

Hmm... good ideas folks. That also could be a good counterbalance to discourage people from following this path. You could have a general rule that having any physical stat more than 20 away from any other physical stat is likely to result in problems, and ditto for the mental stats. Think about the mismatches that are implied...

john

 

[The Lone Badger]

Which spell? The Graz'zt spell? Because he doesn't want a demon price bound within the Green, as he said.

But they're planning to bind him on another plane.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I've been thinking about epic spells, and I've come to the conclusion that it is not a good idea to let Mostin develop the perceptual transcendence sequence of spells.

For one, I just searched through the SRD (well, the PHB and the DMG) and I couldn't find any items or spells that give circumstance, luck or insight bonuses to an ability scores. Inherent bonuses, yes (to a maximum of +5). Enhancement bonuses, obviously.

And I regard the guidelines in the ELH even more cautiously than I regard the magic item pricing guidelines in the DMG. They can cause no end of trouble if used as a cook-book by players instead of a resource by DMs.

Of course, there is little doubt that Sepulchrave knows how to challenge players even when a particular interpretation of the rules gives them enormous powers. I'm just saying that this is setting off alarm bells.

 

[Roman]

You know Chieromancer if any other DM allowed players to develop such a spell I would be highly suspicious, but with Sepulchrave I don't worry one bit. I am sure it will turn out to be amazing!

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I've been thinking about epic spells, and I've come to the conclusion that it is not a good idea to let Mostin develop the perceptual transcendence sequence of spells.

This is an interesting observation - I was in two minds myself about okaying it. They are kind of uber-munchkin. I guess it comes down to the way the DM exercises control in the game, and the way the characters interact.

Philosophically, I tend to prefer plot-driven constraints/controls upon characters, as opposed to mechanical ones, or ones which depend upon DM fiat. And Mostin's rite was designed as a means to interpret the web of motes - not to exercise huge magical power. It simply happened that, mechanically, it also makes his spells almost irresistible.

Nwm's caveat - that it should only be used for divination - works in two ways. First, it conveys the fact that Nwm himself is very nervous about participating in a series of spells which empower three already very dangerous arcanists yet further. It places a kind of moral responsibility upon those involved - which I feel is no bad thing (it's an epic campaign, after all). But it's also a recognition that the mechanics are merely there to explain something that happens in game - they have no real value in and of themself. Dave is very good at not getting sucked into a mechanistic mind-set when he plays.

But even if Mostin had - for example - gone power-mad, what could he do? Translate to Afqithan and kill Ainhorr? Translate to Azzagrat and attempt to kill Graz'zt? (Defeat mind blank, penetrate anti-teleportation wards, hope that the Prince isn't in his sanctum, and overcome Graz'zt's SR) Attempt to Gate Graz'zt (who may decide not to come), and then hit him with a disintegrate? Of course, there is nothing that Mostin can do in Wyre itself, without the implicit say-so of the Claviger (another plot driven control, btw.)

The characters' actions do not exist in a void. If Mostin alone were to eliminate Ainhorr, how would Graz'zt react? How would his strategy change? What other powerful entities would suddenly become interested? How would Soneillon react to Mostin and subsequently view him?

A more long-term concern might be about setting a precedent for the mechanics of epic spells - what is allowable, and what is not. This I will continue to judge on a case-by-case basis - given the context that they are to be used in, and the purpose that they serve.

I guess I feel there are more ways of limiting player choices - when necessary - than just saying 'no.' Don't get me wrong, I have said a flat 'no' to several epic spells that Mostin's player has proposed - sometimes you do have to. But this one is so specific - it requires these four casters knowing these four spells, and sufficient buffing and recuperative magic and 9th/epic level slots available. And all being willing to participate.

Still, the spell sequence does have very big plot development consequences. And nothing that I'd foreseen, either. I like it when that happens.

 

[Roman]

I guess it comes down to the way the DM exercises control in the game, and the way the characters interact.

Philosophically, I tend to prefer plot-driven constraints/controls upon characters, as opposed to mechanical ones, or ones which depend upon DM fiat. And Mostin's rite was designed as a means to interpret the web of motes - not to exercise huge magical power. It simply happened that, mechanically, it also makes his spells almost irresistible.

Agreed - I am of the same mindset, but since I am nowhere near as good as you at exercising plot-driven constraints, I have to say no more often.

Still, the spell sequence does have very big plot development consequences. And nothing that I'd foreseen, either. I like it when that happens.

You realize that now we will all be waiting even more anxiously (if that is even possible) to read what happens?!