[ELH] Monk: My fists are useless!

[da chicken]

However, sure striking only allows you to overcome DR of +5 or less (ability description).

Monks do get feats much slower that other classes in Epic levels. I recommend any high-level Monk to take as many PrC as he can from Oriental Adventures. A Monk 20/Henshin Mystic 10/Shintao Monk 10 has a vast array of special abilities, and each class stacks Monk abilities (UBAB, AC bonus, speed).

Also, you always take Penetrate Damage Reduction before Improved Ki Strike. PDR give you a +2, but can only be taken once. At 21st level (your next feat after 20th), that makes your hands overcome +5 DR. Henshin Mystic also effectively grants IKS twice.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Originally posted by Petrosian
IIRC, the number of beasties requiring more than +3 to hit was very very few. The number of beasties requiring more than +2 was a little more numerous. The monk gets +2 by 12th iirc.

It's 13th level. Considering at 13th level the GMW and magic items get to +4, +2 to only bypass DR isn't much at all.

And a lot of the tougher creatures have DR of X/+4. Usually X is so high that a monk's unarmed strike is meaningless.

And even the CR 21+ creatures typically have a DR of *at least* +5, I've seen a whole bunch at +6 or better. What's the monk to do now?

I've seen a lot of suggestions saying "spend feats" on IKS, Penetrate DR, but is that really a good solution?

I don't have sword and fist, what is the formula cost to bypass DR of a certain level?

And sure striking only goes up to +5, so no dice there.

Later.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Well, there already are rules for giving monks an upgrade to their unarmed attack. Unfortunatly, it is incredibly expensive

bonus^2 * 6000gp

is the formula for making an item that upgrades a natrual weapon, IIRC.

Seems like a fair price to me. Gloves of Greater Magic Fang +5 would be only 150,000gp and take the glove slot. Nothing the an epic level character could afford.

Or you could get an item of Greater Magic Fang cast at 15th level, twice per day, at 3 x 15 x 1800 x 1/5 = 32, 400 gp.

What's the problem?

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Seems like a fair price to me. Gloves of Greater Magic Fang +5 would be only 150,000gp and take the glove slot. Nothing the an epic level character could afford.

What's the problem?

The problem is the same: Ki Strike is useless. Instead of using it as a skill the monk has, you have suggested replacing it with a magic item.

This is what we ended up doing in an ELH one-shot I played in. I wasn't the monk, but I suggested a "cheap" pair of gloves that was (in essence) some version of Sure Striking (up to X/+6 DR). That worked out fine, but the point is still the same: Ki Strike, does anyone use it through the levels? I just don't think it is usuable, the Monk must use a weapon or pick up some gloves that replace his Ki Strike ability, simply because it is a useless ability (IMO).

 

[Pax]

And sure striking only goes up to +5, so no dice there.

Later.

So ditch the Sure Striking!

For truly epic Bracers of Striking:

Ghost Touch Impact Bracers of Striking, +10 constructed of Living Metal (for the self-repair function, and sheer neatness factor). Market price +12 weapons, so each end costs 288,000gp, doubled for the two ends to 576,000gp, plus the 1,310 base, and the 1,500 for fashioning them of Living Metal ... 578,810gp total price.

+10 to hit, +10 to damage, doubled threat range, and can tag incorporeal targets with ease. Penetrate up to x/+10 DR, too.

All for EVERY one of the monk's unarmed attacks.

What's not to love about that?!?

 

[orbitalfreak]

While creating 26th level adventures for the Epic Level Adventure in the ELH, my fellow PC was a monk who wanted to use his fists.

emphasis mine...

There's the problem. He wanted to use his fists instead of one of the monk's special weapons (with which he gets to use his increased number of attacks, btw).

If you want high damage vs. low DR creatures, smack 'em with your hand. If you want to do meaningful damage against high DR creatures, break down and get a Kama of Sure Striking, or Kama +x. It's only one weapon, not like it's going to break the bank.

The problem isn't that the monk's abilities are getting the shaft, it's that he isn't using the options available to him.

He may have wanted to use his fists, but he needs to use a weapon. The pyromaniac fireballing and flamethrowing wizard might want to use those Evocation [fire] spells a bunch, but he'll need to break out the Ray of Frost against that Red Dragon.



Personally, I give epic monks a feat every 4 levels instead of 5, Ki Strike increases by +1 at level 21 and every 5 levels thereafter.

Allowing Ki Strike to stack with magical plusses for overcoming DR when using monk weapons (i.e. a level 16 monk with a +2 kama overcomes DR of +5) might also be an option.

 

[Pax]

Re: Re: [ELH] Monk: My fists are useless!

He may have wanted to use his fists, but he needs to use a weapon. The pyromaniac fireballing and flamethrowing wizard might want to use those Evocation [fire] spells a bunch, but he'll need to break out the Ray of Frost against that Red Dragon.

Actually, Elemental Substitution: SONIC will do quite nicely 90% of the time, thank you very much. FireBall (SoundBall?) to your heart's content, mister spellchucker, sir ...

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I think that amulet of magic fist was put in sword and fist because they simply overlooked it in the DMG. And ki strike isn't meant to be the monks standard method of penatrating DR, and is just there as a hah even though I've been stripped naked I can still fight magical creatues benefit.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

How often can the monk use Quivering Palm? It's either once per day or once per week. Either way, you won't be able to use it every round in every encounter. And many creatures are immune to hit, or have Fortitude save bonuses greater than +30 (in ELH).

The poor monk got shafted when it came to DR. The Player's Handbook didn't have anything to help him out with attack bonuses, he has to wait until 9th-level before he can pierce DR (I've seen CR 3 creatures with DR 15/+1).

There are lots of items to help out the monk, my favorite are the Bracers of Striking, even though that means that, stylistically, you've become a boxer. I don't know why they couldn't include something like that in the ELH, though. This must have come up during playtesting, and been written into the reports.

 

[Chris Nagle]

If you use OA try a Tattoo Monk. They get the Crab Tattoo which gives them DR 2 per Tattoo which can be overcome by + weapons = to con bonus.

I have a 6th Tattoo Monk with DR 6/+5 so with this I can overcome any DR to +5.