Elves don't Dream

[ssampier]

IMC, Elves do not in fact dream. Ever. They cannot enter the plane of Dreams, either. This is either a blessing or a curse from their cousins, the Faerie, who are said to embody Dream.

-- N

fascinating. I must... go... now...

(idea yoinked).

 

[Once a Fool]

With regards to the elven life-span, Tolkein's elves were, compaired to the shorter-lived races, usually more wise (in the Lost Tales, if I recall, one branch was called the Gnomes--Greek for "wisdom," or somesuch. Memory is foggy). This is both because of their deeper experience in Middle-Earth (that is, their immortality) and also because of their inherent connection to the spiritual world, such as it is. This is, of course, not so in D&D. Elves do not get a wisdom bonus, and I can't help but feel that the trance time should have something to do with attaining a personal wisdom.

Of course, in the Silmarillion, Iluvatar also says of the race of man that its mortality is a gift. That race is also spiritually driven to seek more than what is in the world, and pass on to a place the elves will never know. My guess is that the mortal ability to dream may be connected to that place, may offer glimpses, at least sometimes. Of course, in D&D, cosmology is typically set up into a collection of planes and that place would be one outer plane of many. Furthermore, the elves get to go, too, in D&D.

 

[Trickstergod]

Which to me raises an even more important point--with their longer life spans, and starting age being higher, wouldn't it seem that Elves would have more starting skill points than other races? Going back to my point about the poetry of Elves in Tolkien, being that their dreaming seems to exist through their poetry and music, doesn't it make sense that most elves should probably start off with at least some Lore or Bardic skills? 'Course this is 3.5 AD&D...where the Elves only live a millenia or so, as it were...

Rather than make elves a level-adjusted race, I typically just assume the average elf comes in around level 8-10 in comparison to the typical level 2-3 human.

Seeing as how ridiculously fast PC's tend to gain experience and levels, anyway - with many campaigns going from level 1 to 20 in the mindboggling span of one in-game year - it tends to work out for PC elves, anyway. The PC's, by dint of craziness like hitting level 20 within an in-game year, are already ridiculously out of synch with what should be reasonable progression, anyway, in most instances.

Anyway, I just eliminated sleep-immunity in my games. Don't like it. Partly just because it comes across as pretentious "It's sleep, but we don't call it sleep" statements. Four hours of reverie where you enter a dream-like, meditative trance? Sounds close enough to sleep to me.

Instead, elves in my campaigns count as fey for the purposes of charm spells, rendering them immune to charm person and the like.

Though as for the belief that no ability to dream cuts elves off from a creative font?

Sure, they have hundreds of years to come to terms with themselves, but only evolution of character will ever provide a new perspective. No epiphony borne on the tides of dreams will ever be forthcoming.

Sure, you have a few geniuses like Descartes who talk about some sudden inspiration hitting them while they slept. Then you have the original "Eureka!" moment that came from observations during a bath.

The evolution of character isn't tied strictly to dreams. Introspection - which is rather what trance comes across as - is another perfectly valid avenue of changed perspective. Trance could bring that about just as much as a dream could. For that matter, I find it more likely to bring about change than a dream - while I won't disregard dreaming as a potential way of changing perspective, most of my own changes in perspective came about from quiet, conscious introspection. Elven trance comes across as an especially advanced form of that.

 

[Once a Fool]

Though as for the belief that no ability to dream cuts elves off from a creative font?



Sure, you have a few geniuses like Descartes who talk about some sudden inspiration hitting them while they slept. Then you have the original "Eureka!" moment that came from observations during a bath.

The evolution of character isn't tied strictly to dreams. Introspection - which is rather what trance comes across as - is another perfectly valid avenue of changed perspective. Trance could bring that about just as much as a dream could. For that matter, I find it more likely to bring about change than a dream - while I won't disregard dreaming as a potential way of changing perspective, most of my own changes in perspective came about from quiet, conscious introspection. Elven trance comes across as an especially advanced form of that.

No argument there. I'm just wondering what psychological implications the lack of ability for such unconscious change would bring about for the race. Nothing in an elf's life - nothing - happens outside of consciousness.

No surreal art, nothing abstract; these things would have to be incomprehensable to an elf. Only conscious experience can enter an elf's mindset.

 

[Klaus]

He/She just takes a long time experimenting with several professions and stuff like that before choosing a career path (for instance, if an elf wants a new house, he'll go out and learn bits of architecture and engineering to design his own house himself).
QUOTE]

Which to me raises an even more important point--with their longer life spans, and starting age being higher, wouldn't it seem that Elves would have more starting skill points than other races? Going back to my point about the poetry of Elves in Tolkien, being that their dreaming seems to exist through their poetry and music, doesn't it make sense that most elves should probably start off with at least some Lore or Bardic skills? 'Course this is 3.5 AD&D...where the Elves only live a millenia or so, as it were...

IRC, elves seek out this knowledge, and promptly forget it as soon as its no longer needed. But it is reflected in the Elf Dilletante feat (Races of the Wild).

 

[Mighty Veil]

Where in the Wild is Gildor Inglorian?

I once wondered why elves don't sleep. My research led me to this essay from MERP. I also like the idea that elves do sleep.

Where in the Wild is Gildor Inglorian? (abridged)
- Michael Martinez
full essay: http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/mmartinezwheregildoringlorian/

Do Gildor Inglorion's wandering band of Elves ever stop to sleep? Gildor is a very puzzling character because he appears to be nothing more than a deus ex machina. Supposedly, Gildor and his companions are returning from a special pilgrimage they have made to Lindon. But what does all that have to do with whether Gildor's people sleep on the road, and why should that matter?

Well, it matters insofar as people occasionally ask me where Gildor and his companions would have stayed on their travels across Eriador. While common sense suggests to me they would seek out the most safe and comfortable lodgings available, it seems offensive to other people that Elves should ever stop over in Bree. I have no idea of why. People just seem to have a very difficult time accepting the idea that Elves would ever want to sleep in a soft bed or have a pint of ale in the company of Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits.

So, why wouldn't Gildor and his Elves have wanted to stay in Bree, if there was only one other inn located between Bree-land and Rivendell (the Forsaken Inn, which Aragorn said stood a day's journey east of Bree)? Some people suggest that perhaps Gildor and his companions did not sleep. In fact, there is a widespread, if mistaken, notion that Tolkien's Elves did not require sleep.

This misunderstanding arises in part from the passages in The Two Towers where Tolkien suggests that Legolas does not sleep as Aragorn and Gimli do while the three are chasing the Orcs who have taken Merry and Pippin. <snip details> He slept in Moria, for example, while Gandalf kept the watch in the abandoned guard-room where Pippin dropped the rock into the well.

Tolkien provides enough examples of Elvish sleeping habits elsewhere to establish that they can and do sleep normally. It's highly doubtful, for example, that Elrond kept beds in his house just in case some friendly Dwarves or Hobbits cared to drop by. So, Elves normally slept much as we do.

Which brings us back to Gildor and his company. If their primary business (in the story) involves travel back and forth across Eriador, and if they gather news and convey messages between Rivendell and Lindon (or between Rivendell and Aman), then it would certainly make sense for them to at least visit a few of the more prominent inns such as the Prancing Pony.

----
Another good elf essay
http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/michaelmartinezsuite101essay113

 

[Trickstergod]

No surreal art, nothing abstract; these things would have to be incomprehensable to an elf. Only conscious experience can enter an elf's mindset.

Ah, but elves still drink. They can still take hallucinogens or otherwise get drugged up. They can still, quite consciously, look at melting wax, look at a clock, and meld the images together, after a fashion. They're still affected by hypnosis. They can be knocked unconscious or otherwise put into a coma-like state (nonlethal pummel'em to the ground).

I see them as quite capable of surreal art and abstract thought, or at least the ability to understand it. Symbolism and the like isn't restricted to the ability to dream.

 

[Mercule]

Honestly, this is one of my least favorite additions to 3E fluff

If anything, this has been toned down in 3E. I've got plenty of old source material from 1E that talks about elves not dreaming and how that impacts their psyche.

It's always been one of my favorite things about elves. They aren't just youthful, androgynous humans. They actually have an alien mindset. Of course, that's of no use if your PCs just want to roxxors with bows.