Epic spells and the Epic Caster (unfair balence of power?)

[BiggusGeekus]

Yeah, but the caster is getting to pull off a highly specific and tailored event.

It is the same kind of decision casters make through their entire high-level career. Do you really want +5 INT? OK, it'll just cost you exp on five wishes. Do you really want a +6 stat enhancing item? OK, it'll just cost you exp (and gold) to make a magic item.

Other classes have to quest for specific items or trust their luck. Casters have a degree of control over their fate (as they should) but at a cost (as it should be).

 

[Greatwyrm]

First, I have not yet seen the ELH. But from what I've heard, the epic spells sound a lot like the create-your-own stuff from the second edition high level book. Why should Sor/Wiz or Clr have to sacrifice xp when the Rog and Ftr don't.

Let's say, just for the sake of argument, a Ftr can get the proper epic feats to have unlimited attacks agains any number of creatures he can reach in one round (yea, I know it's ridiculous, but stay with me). All the attacks he wants against anybody he started within, say, 90' of where he started the round. Pretty darn powerful.

However, it still doesn't compare with the ability to just wish something with 160 HD or less to be dead as a free action or the ability to do 5d6 fire damage to every creature on the plane (again, haven't seen ELH, but the 2e system could do it). They just aren't on the same scale.

A Ftr or Rog will probably never have the ability to make such a huge change on reality by sheer force of will. That's why such possibly history changing magics available to a Sor, Wiz, or Clr need to have a high price tag. As was said earlier, xp has a high value to characters. Epic magic probably isn't something most DMs will want to be cheap and easy in their campaigns.

Look at what Wish can do. Do you think 5k is too much for that? 25k xp for a +5 to a stat -- sign me up. That's not all that much when you're in the upper teens in character level.

 

[Psion]

First, I have not yet seen the ELH. But from what I've heard, the epic spells sound a lot like the create-your-own stuff from the second edition high level book.

It is strikingly similar in some aspects.

 

[kreynolds]

allow the research and availability of level 10, 11, etc... spells

Oh my god, would that open up a can of worms or what!? LOL I think I'll pass!

 

[Blacksad]

Oh my god, would that open up a can of worms or what!? LOL I think I'll pass!

Why?

The big difference with this system is that it ease the creation of epic spellcaster if you have a list of spells, no needs to create an epic spell, calculate the cost and xp he spent, and the influence on CR that the spell might have, as much as magic item IMO.

And the player caster hasn't the need to take craft epic woundrous item to craft spellcraft boosting items, or hopes that the DM will grants some boosting item. IMHO the current system rely too much on specific magic item, kind of like the psi-combat that require stat-boosting items to allow the DC to follow the increase in saves of opponents, and I do not like this.

Plus players won't spend all the party treasure to build the kill them all spell, kind of like granting access to wish spell for a 10 level party, it's too hard for me to balance, but I still have to provide unny things to toys with for spellcaster, otherwise they'll multiclass as fighter.

The downside is that it is clunky and probably less fun (you loose the random element of an epic spell that you have 50% chance of throwing).

So what might fall upon me that I didn't see?

 

[Psion]

It doesn't sound like a bad varinat. I wouldn't use it, but still.

 

[Berk]

ok people, here's how I look at it and think that it should be looked at. In order for these spellcasters to do what they do it takes a part of them. You don't see a fighter standing there looking fatigued after swinging his mighty greatsword of cleaving vorpal keen kill everything under 500HD in one hit sword. But when that spell caster casts that kill everything under 500HD spell, it better sure as hell take a lot out of them with the amount of mystical energy they are handling.

 

[Greatwyrm]

Additionally, let's look at some of the roleplaying costs on going after some absurdly large epic spell.

1. You're out of the game for a while. Probably weeks or months of downtime. And that's after you have assmbled all your necessary research materials (probably another long period of time).

2. Go ahead and try to create a spell that will wipe out all life in a 2 mile radius. Do you think the god of healing/peace/hippies is going to sit by and let you do it? I'm not talking about the god coming down and whupping you personally, but you should expect his/her/its personal representatives to show up and try to convince you to do otherwise.

3. How many kings/queens would feel comfortable knowing there is someone in their kingdom capable of killing most of their standing army in about 6 seconds? Finding a place where you're welcome to practice your trade could become very difficult. Funny how incinerating hundreds of people will do that.

4. If you do accomplish something like that, but still manage to get yourself killed, how many clerics you'd want to associate with will be willing to bring you back? You'd be lucky to find a druid to who would agree to bring you back as a squirrel.

 

[Arravis]

Which epic spells do that, that don't require a lvl 50+ caster?

 

[Greatwyrm]

Which epic spells do that, that don't require a lvl 50+ caster?

If you roll poorly on Reincarnate, you could be taking your next meal at a doggy dish. Or is that what you're asking?