Epic spells and the Epic Caster (unfair balence of power?)

[Blacksad]

A +200 Spellcraft item? That seems unreasonable and I believe beyond the official rules (I haven't gotten to the item part of the ELH I'll admit though). Let's assume a +30 to Spellcraft from items, which is VERY powerful but doable. My point is that the "accessable" epic spells (ie. those that can be cast by a lvl 30 or below character) are pretty damn weak and not much better then 9th lvl spells. Not only that, they have MASSIVE penalties for what seems to be very little gain.

err no, there is no limits to the bonus an item can have in the ELH, in fact a +30 item is a non-epic item that cost 18,000 gp, if you look in the DMG officially there was no limits on skill bonus, the ELH added the 10 times price increase above +30.

and at 8,000,000 gp, I'll expect to have some level 60 wizards to have a +200 to spellcraft item

At level 40, I expect the caster to have a +100 item, it cost 2,000,000 gp out of 13,000,000 gp, that's a must have in fact.

and oops for the backlash damage limit, haven't read all of it curently.

There is an Epic Skill Focus that grant a +10, I think you can have it only one time.

 

[cfmcdonald]

err no, there is no limits to the bonus an item can have in the ELH, in fact a +30 item is a non-epic item that cost 18,000 gp, if you look in the DMG officially there was no limits on skill bonus, the ELH added the 10 times price increase above +30.

and at 8,000,000 gp, I'll expect to have some level 60 wizards to have a +200 to spellcraft item

At level 40, I expect the caster to have a +100 item, it cost 2,000,000 gp out of 13,000,000 gp, that's a must have in fact.

and oops for the backlash damage limit, haven't read all of it curently.

There is an Epic Skill Focus that grant a +10, I think you can have it only one time.

It's also relatively easy to mitigate these super high spell DCs if you are the leader of a magic academy, or a temple or a cult or some such, using ritual magic. Each person contributing a 1st level spell can decrease the DC by 1, eacy 2nd level by 3, and so forth. This can make for some cool epic plots where the great big bad guy is casting his epic doom spell with 7 day casting time using 100 minions, and you have to find him and stop it in time.

Chris

 

[Chromnos]

In my opinion, an experience point cost for a spell represents an investment of person on the part of the player character (spell caster). I feel these rules are appropriate when creating something (an item or effect) that is ongoing. For this reason, I think that the experience cost for item creation is appropriate (ala Sauron's ring of power) but there should be a serious long teram pay-off for a character who sacrifices power.

For my champaigns, I shelve the experience cost rule in cases where I feel it is inappropriate- any instance that does not represent an investiture of self into an on-going effect.

Generally, spells can be costly in other ways or have components that are very rare so as to limit their use.

But overall, I'm with you. Forcing characters to expend their hard-earned exp to cast a spell and fall behind the other classes in advancement is a real hard pill to swallow.

-C

 

[Chromnos]

That boom spell is hilarious

Range 300 feet

Area of effect 2 miles.

Just gorgeous.

 

[The Sigil]

That boom spell is hilarious

Range 300 feet

Area of effect 2 miles.

Just gorgeous.

Unless I miss my guess, that's basically saying you can CENTER it up to 300 feet away, and it will wipe out everything within 2 miles of that center (hmm... can't get out of the radius yourself, though...)

--The Sigil

 

[Blacksad]

Unless I miss my guess, that's basically saying you can CENTER it up to 300 feet away, and it will wipe out everything within 2 miles of that center (hmm... can't get out of the radius yourself, though...)

--The Sigil

Yep, that's it. You would be better with an energy immunity spell (in Tome & Bloods or Magic of Faerun).

 

[drnuncheon]

A +200 Spellcraft item? That seems unreasonable and I believe beyond the official rules (I haven't gotten to the item part of the ELH I'll admit though).

There's no limits. Except the gp and xp you're willing to spend, that is...

Let's assume a +30 to Spellcraft from items, which is VERY powerful but doable. My point is that the "accessable" epic spells (ie. those that can be cast by a lvl 30 or below character) are pretty damn weak and not much better then 9th lvl spells. Not only that, they have MASSIVE penalties for what seems to be very little gain.

Well, they shouldn't be completely out of line with the existing spells. Spells that a 21st level caster can throw ought to be about like 10th level spells - better than 9th level, but not by *too* much. I think expecting to go from 'meteor swarm' to 'wipe out all life on the planet' in a single level is a little excessive - no other class gets that kind of jump.

Some seeds seem better than others - for example, using the negative-level aspect of slay seems far better than energy drain, because you don't have to target it as a ray. (Why making it a ray is more difficult is beyond me - having to roll to-hit is a good thing? Then again, I guess the lack of save makes up for it.) Summon, on the other hand, is not as good - but the PHB summon spells have a very wide range of CRs that they can summon (anywhere from CR 5 to CR 14 for summon monster IX).

J

 

[Cheiromancer]

Instead of your Boom spell, use a variation of Rain of Fire. It uses two energy seeds (1 fire, 1 weather) to summon rainclouds and have them rain fire (+12 ad hoc DC to convert raindrops into flame). Only 1 hp per round, But if you include another half dozen energy seeds (fire) you should have no problem annihilating armies.

 

[Creamsteak]

Well, modeled after a video game I recently purchased (morrowind) I think I saw one power-component system.

There are soul gems, and there is a 1st level spell called soul-bind. Soul bind lasts 1-minute/level, touch casting range, and a couple other easy to figure out attributes. What the spell does, is whatever creature is hit with the touch is surrounded by an aura. If the creature dies while the aura exists, it's "energy" (but not soul) is sealed into the gem, if the caster succeeds at a spellcraft check (I would assume).

The gem acts as the experience fee to create a great item. There are different grades of gems, from lesser to grand, to artifact leve ones, and each has a certain limit.

I guess you would either determine how much energy is stored by the creatures hit dice, it's spells per day, caster level, or charisma modifier. Whatever method you choose, you make up an equation that allows you to create items at lower levels that can fuel as much as 50 xp, and at epic levels you could craft items by destroying demigods and other incredible feats and store those souls in a gem to act as that 150k xp you need.

Just a thought, not necessarily well thought out, but a thought.

 

[thepriz]

Personally, I am not fond of taking away experience points to balance the game. I think this was a poor game design. It has always been a tradition to require the Wizard to give experience to balance him. I would love for once that someone would take a look at how we really view spell casters in every fantasy world that I have seen (excluding the ones written based on the D&D system). Wizards cast spells by using the energy that is around them. They harness it to do their will. The ability to control this power is what should be used to balance the wizard not taking away hard earned experience. In fact if a wizard studies and learns how to create an item he should gain experience not lose it. (I don't think I am dumber for creating a mini computer in collage, in fact I would say I gained experience.) I would also require that the component system be used to help balance wizards. I think I would require that the spellbook would have to be present for spells that are of high level and used during the casting. I am not saying there are not instances where XP should be taken, but it should not be used as a balancing technique.

Well anyway, I am working on a system that I think is more realistic and will publish in the Netbook of Spells and Magic when it is complete.