Epic spells and the Epic Caster (unfair balence of power?)

[LordAO]

You don't have to research spells, you know. As the DM you should allow players to quest and find epic level spells. It's a great seed (no pun intended) for adventure, and allows players to earn the epic level spells without spending millions of gold and 100s of thousands of experience. You could allow them to quest to find the arch magus' spellbook, or let them go deep into some godly shrine to find the inscription of the ultimate earthquake spell. While wizards can research spells of 0-9 level, they didn't have to. They could buy them, steal them, find them, etc. There's no reason the epic level spells should be any different. Of course players will probably want to design their own trademark epic spells, and that's fine too! Whatever you do, the possibilities are endless and the more things that lead to real ropleplaying, the better!

 

[Sesostris]

A few points about the epic spells:

1: XP is the only way to get a spellcaster to hesitate with creating world-destroying spells. Material costs and rare components can always be gotten far more easily. I remember some heavy munchkining with the 2e high-level rules.

2: You don't necessarily get a much more powerful spell, but you can get exactly the spell you want. I've always felt that the more advanced spellcasters don't always just become more powerful, but more versatile.

3: Especially wizards benefit from this, as they don't have to prepare epic-level spells, but can pretend to be sorcerers and just cast whatever takes their fancy.

 

[Blacksad]

Personally, I am not fond of taking away experience points to balance the game. I think this was a poor game design. It has always been a tradition to require the Wizard to give experience to balance him. I would love for once that someone would take a look at how we really view spell casters in every fantasy world that I have seen (excluding the ones written based on the D&D system). Wizards cast spells by using the energy that is around them. They harness it to do their will. The ability to control this power is what should be used to balance the wizard not taking away hard earned experience. In fact if a wizard studies and learns how to create an item he should gain experience not lose it. (I don't think I am dumber for creating a mini computer in collage, in fact I would say I gained experience.) I would also require that the component system be used to help balance wizards. I think I would require that the spellbook would have to be present for spells that are of high level and used during the casting. I am not saying there are not instances where XP should be taken, but it should not be used as a balancing technique.

Well anyway, I am working on a system that I think is more realistic and will publish in the Netbook of Spells and Magic when it is complete.

Magic more realistic? uh?

Well anyway, if you want the harness mystical energy feel, you do not have to go very far. Try to borrow a copy of the Dark Sun campaign setting or Player Option Spell & Magic.

The defiler destroy plant life in a radius proportional to the spell level, I do not remember if the zone was barren of life for 1 year or permanently, taking into account the terrain type you are in. You'll just have to figure an equivalent between xp and spell level and voilà!

Though your wizards will be hunted by farmer

You could come up with alternate method: absorb heat, animal life, light, etc... You'll have darkness filled zone or ice age after epic fight between wizards.

Also if you want exemple of hard magic that cost something to the caster, you have: Merlin, Lodoss, Lovecraft. You must have seen one of those but you didn't remembered .

And it has never been a tradition to take Xp from a caster in previous edition, it was aging or permanent constitution loses for spell, and the creation of magic item gave you bonus Xp.

I hope that when it will be released in the SRD, publisher gives us more epic feats (I think that there isn't enough to choose from), and alternate high level spellcasting.

Also on Xp cost for fighter or rogue, Arravis, you might want to check way of the samurai and way of the ninja by AEG. You'll find Kata: consider them like spell with a minute casting time that grant bonus for an hour, to gain one of this kata you need some feats and to spent Xp. So, it doesn't reduce the Xp cost for wizards, but it gives similar mechanics for other classes, add to that the Xp cost to improve your weapon, and the system is fair for every one! Every body need extra Xp to do cool things.

 

[Arravis]

*Every body need extra Xp to do cool things*

Not within the core system. Actually, it's mostly wizards that'll end up spending the most XP. Just seems extremely unfair.

 

[Blacksad]

*Every body need extra Xp to do cool things*

Not within the core system. Actually, it's mostly wizards that'll end up spending the most XP. Just seems extremely unfair.

I agree, but house rules and non-core product are here to deal with that.

If there wasn't any bugs in products, why would you buy toolkit books?

The industry needs those bugs!

But I'm not sure that the Xp cost is unfair, the Xp spent that prevented a character to rise in level aren't taken into account in CR.

An old level 17 wizards who isn't level 18 due to abuse of Xp is a lot more powerfull than a new level 17 wizards, and he gain more Xp than a level 18 wizard for similar challenge.

The unfair thing would be to spent Xp to boost the other character (magic sword, etc....), but that's a loss on a personal level, the group as a whole might profit of it.

 

[Oni]

3: Especially wizards benefit from this, as they don't have to prepare epic-level spells, but can pretend to be sorcerers and just cast whatever takes their fancy.

"A developed epic spell becomes an idelible part of the caster and may be prepared without a spellbook (if a wizard is the caster). Characters who cast spells spontaneously, such as sorcerers, can cast a developed epic spell by using an open epic spell slot. Druids, clerics, and similar spellcasters can likewise prepare epic spells using epic spell slots. A spellcaster can prepare or cast any epic spell she knows as many time per day as she has available epic spell slots." ELH pg. 72



They are very careful about using the word prepare in regards to any caster that has to select there spells ahead of time. What this tells me is that Wizards have to select there epic spells ahead of time, just as they must there lower level spells. Socerers however may choose them at the time of casting. I think they are very clear on this.

 

[Arravis]

Doesn't that seem unfair since there is not limit to the number of epic spells that a Sorc can know? That's the balance and power control on a Sorc... what evens it out in epic? A non sorc-caster has to have SOME advantage to make up for this lack.

 

[thepriz]

Magic more realistic? uh?

Well anyway, if you want the harness mystical energy feel, you do not have to go very far. Try to borrow a copy of the Dark Sun campaign setting or Player Option Spell & Magic.

The defiler destroy plant life in a radius proportional to the spell level, I do not remember if the zone was barren of life for 1 year or permanently, taking into account the terrain type you are in. You'll just have to figure an equivalent between xp and spell level and voilà!

Though your wizards will be hunted by farmer

You could come up with alternate method: absorb heat, animal life, light, etc... You'll have darkness filled zone or ice age after epic fight between wizards.

Also if you want exemple of hard magic that cost something to the caster, you have: Merlin, Lodoss, Lovecraft. You must have seen one of those but you didn't remembered .

And it has never been a tradition to take Xp from a caster in previous edition, it was aging or permanent constitution loses for spell, and the creation of magic item gave you bonus Xp.

I hope that when it will be released in the SRD, publisher gives us more epic feats (I think that there isn't enough to choose from), and alternate high level spellcasting.

Also on Xp cost for fighter or rogue, Arravis, you might want to check way of the samurai and way of the ninja by AEG. You'll find Kata: consider them like spell with a minute casting time that grant bonus for an hour, to gain one of this kata you need some feats and to spent Xp. So, it doesn't reduce the Xp cost for wizards, but it gives similar mechanics for other classes, add to that the Xp cost to improve your weapon, and the system is fair for every one! Every body need extra Xp to do cool things.

Yes, I remember now. It has been awhile since I have opened by 2ed books and even longer for the 1ed. I am working on a mana system. I am testing it in a campaign that I am running now. I hope to have all the bugs worked out soon. I need to work out the epic level parts of still.

 

[Arravis]

*bump*

 

[ChaosMage]

There are advantages that wizards and divine spellcasters have over sorcerers... a divine spellcaster can use Life and Heal seeds, while arcane spellcasters can't, and wizards benefit from being able to use their relevant attribute (intelligence) as the modifier on spellcraft checks to cast epic-level spells. If you use the variant rule that allows a caster to use his relevant attribute on those checks regardless of class, you may have to come up with something to boost wizards up.

Also, about the problem with XP costs... there is a way around them. I don't have the book in front of me (at work), but there's a rod I found that will subtract 2000 XP from the cost to cast a spell while its held. It also has a special power that lets you avoid the XP cost to develop an epic level spell altogether, at the cost of destroying the rod (or at least making it nonmagical). As I recall, it was around 640,000 gp... not worth it for some of the low DC spells, but it seems almost necessary to use them for any high DC spells one would want to develop...

[slightly edited for spelling and grammar]